OSH - AIRCRAFT DOWN SOUTH OF ULTRALIGHT AREA

Grum.Man said:
I agree every circumstance is different. From what I can tell that was a 100k gyro so I'd have to imagine there is enough money there to cover the gap in insurance coverage. I am not against him going after that money. It's the people that tack on "emotional damages" in an attempt to capitalize on an accident that bug me.
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I'm not following you here. What value is there in a wrecked gyro? Who said anything about "tacking things on?"

The only mistake the Mooney guy made was to underinsure his plane, but he was free to do that.
 
flyingron said:
I'm not following you here. What value is there in a wrecked gyro? Who said anything about "tacking things on?"

The only mistake the Mooney guy made was to underinsure his plane, but he was free to do that.
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idk I'm not an insurance agent. Point is if you can afford a 100k toy you probably aren't living paycheck to paycheck so there should be money somewhere to supplement the Mooney's insurance gap.

I did, it's a general statement of how these lawsuits usually go.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
I have both a Piper Warrior and a Magni M-16 gyro. Both are insured for $80K, $1M, $100K/pax. The Warrior was $758 this year for all of that (I can’t see a breakdown of hull vs liability). The gyro was $5,441, of which $3,928 is hull and $1,513 is liability. Just the liability for the gyro is twice the total cost for the Warrior.

Oh - and my deductibles for the gyro are $2,500/$1,000 in/not in motion. Zero for both for the Warrior.

I have about 2,500 hours TT including 300 in Magni gyros and a Commercial Gyro rating. I’m 66.

Gyro insurance isn’t cheap, even for liability. Personal opinion: although a lot of the hull cost is high because it’s hard to “partially break” a gyro, the liability is up there because of the Pilot community’s culture. Hard to believe a 2-place gyro with a 17 gal gas tank can cause more liability claims than a Warrior but the market says that’s true.
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My gyro insurance was just under $8K for $85K hull (underinsured) and 1M liability. I forget the specifics and am too lazy to look them up. My Columbia is about 1/3 of that for much higher hull and the same liability.

There were 2 underwriters willing to insure the gyro for liability, but only one would cover hull (Star).
 
If you go to the docket, there are some pretty damning statements from a witness as to some gyro pilots’ conduct. It reads like there are some guys totally lacking awareness of where they are and the hazards they cause by doing whatever they want - 360s with following traffic, approaching, slowing to land and suddenly popping back up. It reads like that field is the wild west.

The final report notes that EAA implemented a one-strike rule for the cowboys. Hopefully that will keep the bozos away, and encourage everyone to stay on script.
 
ateamer said:
If you go to the docket, there are some pretty damning statements from a witness as to some gyro pilots’ conduct. It reads like there are some guys totally lacking awareness of where they are and the hazards they cause by doing whatever they want - 360s with following traffic, approaching, slowing to land and suddenly popping back up. It reads like that field is the wild west.

The final report notes that EAA implemented a one-strike rule for the cowboys. Hopefully that will keep the bozos away, and encourage everyone to stay on script.
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They need to move the ultralight field, and I'd heard they were going to do it. These guys fly right over the campsites and this proves it when they said they fell almost straight down, and hit a parked Mooney. It's intimidating camping there. They don't follow the rules and they get away with it, flying over planes again and again. We'll see if they really take action.
 
3393RP said:
Even though he can't remember the accident, the report will inform him that his cavalier violation of the pattern management rules resulted in the deaths of two innocent people. One hopes that fact upends his life.
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As a gyro pilot, I couldn’t agree more with you. It was shameful to see people on the rotaryforum try to rationalize this guy’s actions.
 
3393RP said:
Even though he can't remember the accident, the report will inform him that his cavalier violation of the pattern management rules resulted in the deaths of two innocent people. One hopes that fact upends his life.
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And in no uncertain terms:
"Flight track information, witness statements, videos, and damage to the aircraft indicated that the gyroplane impacted the left side of the helicopter while performing a prohibited 360° turn on the base leg of the visual approach."
 
It was also in the report, and this was told me the day this event happened, that the pilot in question was told to STOP doing these 360 spirals the day before.
 
"ONE STRIKE AND YOU ARE OUT" would have prevented two deaths. A year too late.
 
3393RP said:
One hopes that fact upends his life.
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If the knowledge of it doesn't, the lawsuits probably will.

Since he was violating a rule, and especially since he had been previously warned, it's possible his insurance won't pay out, and even if it does there's probably not enough liability coverage for this. He's on the hook for two destroyed aircraft besides his own, and who knows what a jury might award for the deaths he caused. There might be an "assumed risk" argument against his injured passenger recovering in a suit, but the passenger would have reasonably assumed the pilot would abide by the traffic pattern rules.

And then there will be whatever actions and fines the FAA may see fit to levy.

IANAL, so maybe the POA legal folks will weigh in, but I wonder if the pilot can be charged with two counts of manslaughter.

He's 54. The repurcusions may well impact much of his remaining lifetime.
 
Criminal liability? My guess is probably not, but I'm just an internet lawyer. Civil liability? Sure, I think there's plenty there, especially for those affected by the fatalities.

The guy will probably declare bankruptcy, and nobody will be made whole. The mooney owner on the ground was underinsured according to that forum's thread, so he's already eating that life lesson, given the uninsured, blood-meet-turnip condition of the offender. That owner also seem to intimate he's not likely to sue independently given the low ROI when confronted with 2024-priced legal costs, though he hasn't ruled it out depending on what transpires when the likely wrongful death lawsuits from the surviving estates start coming forth.

Interesting discussions over on that forum about proffering requirements for all demo/vendor/et al to carry full up insurance + waiver of subrogation to attend these sorts of things. We know the quiet part though, it would hit the vendor attendance visibly enough to show just how unaffordable this whole shtick (post-CARESII/PPP/PSP/2021refi USA) has become. The entire veneer of that hokey pilgrimage is built upon the mythology of pilot solidarity across income points. Start asking for full fare to display and you'll uncover this thing's a bigger Potemkin village than Florida's condo owner demographic in present day.

*frog sip tea meme here*
 
hindsight2020 said:
The guy will probably declare bankruptcy, and nobody will be made whole.
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I can see that becoming a bit sticky. I don't know much about how these things work, but he might not have grounds to file bankruptcy before there are judgments against him, and once there's a judgment it becomes a lien. I don't think liens are wiped out by bankruptcy.

hindsight2020 said:
...given the uninsured, blood-meet-turnip condition of the offender.
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Wasn't aware of that, but not terribly surprised. Is it confirmed that he has no insurance?

hindsight2020 said:
...he's not likely to sue independently given the low ROI when confronted with 2024-priced legal costs,
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Hard to say. Is there a way for all the victims to share legal costs? Even if a judgment isn't recoverable today, a lien could possible recover from future assets, like an inheritance or future wages.

Maybe one of the POA lawyers will feel inclined to discuss how this might pan out.
 
I'm *so* looking forward to buying you a beer someday.

hindsight2020 said:
show just how unaffordable this whole shtick (post-CARESII/PPP/PSP/2021refi USA) has become. The entire veneer of that hokey pilgrimage is built upon the mythology of pilot solidarity across income points. Start asking for full fare to display and you'll uncover this thing's a bigger Potemkin village than Florida's condo owner demographic in present day.

*frog sip tea meme here*
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hindsight2020 said:
Criminal liability? My guess is probably not, but I'm just an internet lawyer.
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The problem is proving it to the level of a criminal conviction. First off, the NTSB conclusions aren't evidence and even much of the data they collected is barred from being used. Of course, if the Winnebago DA wanted to pursue it he could reinterview the witnesses, etc...
 
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