Insurance

Larry benveniste

Filing Flight Plan
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Lbenven
I’m considering buying an m350. I’m fairly new pilot 100 hours and I plan to hire a qualified pilot to fly with me for sometime. Here is the question. I’m 70 years old and in perfect health! When I did a preliminary quote, the results were outlandish. 50k a year! My question is, if I own the plane outright, should I self insure the plane and insure for only liability? The age thing is silly.
 
It's probably not just an age thing. It's an age, experience, hull value, number of seats, and the payout rate of the airframe thing.

The PA46 series sees a lot of accidents/incidents and owner/operators are punished via insurance premiums for that. Hire a full time pilot to be PIC and sit in the right seat and enjoy it while you build time either some other way or see if you can work it out with your insurance company to be allowed to fly either in the right seat or the left with that person. You also may be able to barter with them for a lower rate by doing annual simulator training at an approved facility. Once you get into the pressurized world these are some of the considerations. To be honest I'm shocked they're even talking to you without an instrument rating.

To be honest, I wouldn't self-insure an airplane like that... too much risk. I don't know if an underwriter would allow liability only on something with that many seats either.

Insurance drives who can fly what.... not any FAA regulation.
 
This is sobering, thank you! By the time I consider buying the plane, I will have completed instrument training. Please advise me. Is there a way, if I am patient, willing to fly often (5 days a week or more). I have resources to learn on the best planes available. No constraint. I am extremely healthy, athletic, coordinated. I am technologically as savvy as they come. I have a PhD in Math and I have invented tech products.
I really want to fly long distance comfortably. Pressurization sounds ideal. A game changer.
So with that, considering the insurance issue, should I give it my all towards the m350 or be realistic and get a simpler plane.
Also, what about self insurance. Frankly I’m not a billionaire, but I can buy this plane and if, god forbid, something bad happened, my family will be fine without reimbursement. Again, I’m not trying to push if not realistic. But if it is realistic, I really want to go for it. Thank you Paul!
 
This is sobering, thank you! By the time I consider buying the plane, I will have completed instrument training. Please advise me. Is there a way, if I am patient, willing to fly often (5 days a week or more). I have resources to learn on the best planes available. No constraint. I am extremely healthy, athletic, coordinated. I am technologically as savvy as they come. I have a PhD in Math and I have invented tech products.
I really want to fly long distance comfortably. Pressurization sounds ideal. A game changer.
So with that, considering the insurance issue, should I give it my all towards the m350 or be realistic and get a simpler plane.
Also, what about self insurance. Frankly I’m not a billionaire, but I can buy this plane and if, god forbid, something bad happened, my family will be fine without reimbursement. Again, I’m not trying to push if not realistic. But if it is realistic, I really want to go for it. Thank you Paul!
If speed is your deal, get a Bonanza or Mooney and build hours. I doubt insurance cares much about what you did for a living.
 
Unfortunately, I don’t think the insurance companies will make exceptions for how good you feel or how cognitively sound you are. They are simply looking at the age metric. There are other pilots in your age group that have complained about the very same issue. Now, I don’t know how the autoland button in the Meridian / VisionJet will impact the age/insurance premium rate issue, but it will be interesting to know if it does. As far as self-insured, if you have the liability insurance covered and paid cash for the plane, I don’t think anything is stopping you from not covering the asset. The breakdown between hull and liability will determine if that is worth it.

One more thing. The pilot (instructor or ATP) will probably want to be get covered under your policy and if you have no policy you might not easily get a well qualified pilot to fly with you.
 
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Self insurance is a very personal decision. I wouldn’t recommend it, but you wouldn’t be the first to try it if you go that way. Get your insurance broker to get more quotes and to run numbers for what it would look like when you have more hours. You can pay a CFI for a lot of hours of dual for the money they’re talking about. Get your instrument rating if you don’t already have it and build hours in a PA-32 if you can. Your age hurts the actuary tables, but there are other factors and you can control some of them.
 
I’m taking your advice to heart. I’m thinking about finishing my ppl and instrumentation and then purchase a Bonanza to both continue to build hours and experience. The systems are both Garman, similar I think. So flying Bonanza good prep for eventual upgrade to m250 if desired. In the meantime, we can have a lot of safe fun with the Bonanza.

would you recommend buying the Bonanza now to continue my training on that plane, or wait like suggested above?
 
Another option may be to see what insurance wants for an 80's Mirage. See if the lesser hull value brings thing down to manageable levels.
 
I’m taking your advice to heart. I’m thinking about finishing my ppl and instrumentation and then purchase a Bonanza to both continue to build hours and experience. The systems are both Garman, similar I think. So flying Bonanza good prep for eventual upgrade to m250 if desired. In the meantime, we can have a lot of safe fun with the Bonanza.

would you recommend buying the Bonanza now to continue my training on that plane, or wait like suggested above?

You have a 100 hours and haven't yet finished your PPL? Ya think maybe that you are still a student might be influencing the underwriters a wee bit?
The PA-46 isn't considered an overly difficult airplane to fly, but it's not exactly a trainer.

If I was you I'd probably consider buying a late model Cirrus SR22. Do your instrument in it. It will have panel systems that are closer to what is in an M350. And it's a fine cross-country single piston engine airplane.
Build some time and experience in it in the real world beyond the training environment. Then step up to the M350. The insurance underwriters might be somewhat more kindly.
 
You have a 100 hours and haven't yet finished your PPL? Ya think hat you are still a student might be influencing the underwriters a wee bit?
The PA-46 isn't considered an overly difficult airplane to fly, but it's not exactly a trainer.

If I was you I'd probably consider buying a Cirrus SR22. Do your instrument in it. It will have panel systems that are closer to what is in an M350. And it's a fine cross-country single piston engine airplane.
Build some time and experience in it in the real world beyond the training environment. Then step up to the M350. The insurance underwriters might be somewhat more kindly.
If end game is a high performance retractable, isn't he going to need some retractable time...
 
If end game is a high performance retractable, isn't he going to need some retractable time...

Learning how to put the wheels up and down takes a lot less time and skill than proficiency with the systems and staying ahead of a fast airframe flying in the soup.
 
My question is, if I own the plane outright, should I self insure the plane and insure for only liability?
That depends on why you think you need insurance. If you can handle the potential risk without severe consequence, then sure, self-insure. It sounds like you're a successful guy and maybe have a decent net worth, so you should probably be working with a lawyer on estate planning anyway. See what he thinks about your or your heirs potential exposure in the event of an accident.
 
Age likely isn’t a problem but a lack of experience is. The PA46 is a relatively simple and easy airplane to fly but it has been involved in its fair share of accidents. The insurance underwriters know this and have set their experience thresholds accordingly. I don’t know exactly where the minimum experience threshold is for the Malibu/M350 is but I’ve heard rumor it is around 1000 hours. I had well north of that when I started flying them so insurability was not a major concern to me.

Even if you have adequate experience you can expect to be required to go through initial and annual recurrent training. Insurance rates will probably be around 1-2% of hull value.

One thing worth considering is looking at a Matrix as an intermediate step. I’ve been hearing that insurance is quite a bit more lenient on them and it is still a PA46 so the time spent flying the matrix would be beneficial when transitioning to a Malibu/M350.
 
Larry, you can’t know what you don’t know. This is not an age thing. That is why there are step ups.....you’ll get there.

Patience.......
 
You have a 100 hours and haven't yet finished your PPL? Ya think maybe that you are still a student might be influencing the underwriters a wee bit?
The PA-46 isn't considered an overly difficult airplane to fly, but it's not exactly a trainer.

If I was you I'd probably consider buying a late model Cirrus SR22. Do your instrument in it. It will have panel systems that are closer to what is in an M350. And it's a fine cross-country single piston engine airplane.
Build some time and experience in it in the real world beyond the training environment. Then step up to the M350. The insurance underwriters might be somewhat more kindly.

Thank you for your honesty. This is exactly what I’m looking for. The Cirrus has been recommended to me by others. You clarify that it’s because of the similarities of the systems.
 
I’m considering buying an m350. I’m fairly new pilot 100 hours and I plan to hire a qualified pilot to fly with me for sometime. Here is the question. I’m 70 years old and in perfect health! When I did a preliminary quote, the results were outlandish. 50k a year! My question is, if I own the plane outright, should I self insure the plane and insure for only liability? The age thing is silly.
 
Learning how to put the wheels up and down takes a lot less time and skill than proficiency with the systems and staying ahead of a fast airframe flying in the soup.
Was more talking about what insurance wants to see hours wise
 
Was more talking about what insurance wants to see hours wise

The insurance underwriters don't much like low time pilots in SR22s either. It's an expensive hull to insure.

I was trying to focus him on the skill development progression to get to a pressurized Piper. As others have posted it more about learning the systems and using them proficiently than flying the PA-46 airframe.

Getting insurance is a checkbox exercise. Staying alive requires a more thoughtful approach to the training, imho.
 
The insurance underwriters don't much like low time pilots in SR22s either. It's an expensive hull to insure.

I was trying to focus him on the skill development progression to get to a pressurized Piper. As others have posted it more about learning the systems and using them proficiently than flying the PA-46 airframe.

Getting insurance is a checkbox exercise. Staying alive requires a more thoughtful approach to the training, imho.
amen!
benveniste, post: 3041485, member: 45661"][/QUOTE]
 
Another intermediate step platform to consider, the Saratoga series. You could find one with a G1000, it would be more similar to the M350 than other brands. But, in the long-run for training/learning experience, and insurance-wise, Saratoga or Bonanza probably wouldn't really matter.
 
Another intermediate step platform to consider, the Saratoga series. You could find one with a G1000, it would be more similar to the M350 than other brands. But, in the long-run for training/learning experience, and insurance-wise, Saratoga or Bonanza probably wouldn't really matter.


Your last comment? Neither would matter or they are both equally good?
 
Get an F33 Bonanza and stick in some glass, g500, gtn 750 and a gfc 500. Retract, fast and you're only insuring 4 seats. That'll help build the hours in a complex, high performance frame.
 
sorry about that, they'd be equally good......I just meant, in your overall training/experience, it wouldn't matter that much. Ideally, the greater the similarity between transitions as far as avionics, flying and handling quality, etc., the easier any future transition might be. But, a Malibu/M350 is going to be a bit different, no matter what (different wing, systems, etc.), though no big deal whether coming from a Bo or 'Toga. The Saratoga-to-M350 might feel a bit easier, just because they're both Piper, similar ergonomics, etc. (That said, my personal preference would be a Bonanza, but that's only a matter of taste.)

Edit: wheaties comment above has a lot of merit, insurance has a big quantum threshold when you go from 4 to 6 seats.
 
sorry about that, they'd be equally good......I just meant, in your overall training/experience, it wouldn't matter that much. Ideally, the greater the similarity between transitions as far as avionics, flying and handling quality, etc., the easier any future transition might be. But, a Malibu/M350 is going to be a bit different, no matter what (different wing, systems, etc.), though no big deal whether coming from a Bo or 'Toga. The Saratoga-to-M350 might feel a bit easier, just because they're both Piper, similar ergonomics, etc. (That said, my personal preference would be a Bonanza, but that's only a matter of taste.)
 
That’s where I am Jim! It feels right. I just feel so lucky to be doing this! Where are you based?
 
sorry about that, they'd be equally good......I just meant, in your overall training/experience, it wouldn't matter that much. Ideally, the greater the similarity between transitions as far as avionics, flying and handling quality, etc., the easier any future transition might be. But, a Malibu/M350 is going to be a bit different, no matter what (different wing, systems, etc.), though no big deal whether coming from a Bo or 'Toga. The Saratoga-to-M350 might feel a bit easier, just because they're both Piper, similar ergonomics, etc. (That said, my personal preference would be a Bonanza, but that's only a matter of taste.)

Edit: wheaties comment above has a lot of merit, insurance has a big quantum threshold when you go from 4 to 6 seats.[/QUOT

I am very much appreciating the challenge and required commitment. I am I’m awe! How does the US Airforce prepare a kid to fly an F22 so quickly. That’s a lot harder than the m350! Thank you all!
 
The transaction costs to a step up plane are likely a lot more than the higher insurance and mentoring time.

Check with the insurance agent why/where the coats are so high. It could be hull insurance, it could be age, or it could be experience or some combination.

If experience, and you have the time/cash work with the insurance for a mentor program for 100hrs. 100hrs is normally the first break in price for a complex plane. Then go spend a month with a professional and get the time and ADM.

When looking for insurance, check sub limits vs smooth and in motion values.

Last point, talk to the insurance agent about your age and the plane type. An M-350 is a lot of plane, and may be expensive to carry or may not be available at all. So if you want to have insurance in the future, see where the market is headed.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
My insurance agent called me about a week ago with a new insurance quote for this year. It went up 50% to 120% depending on the insurance company. And he said insurance on high performance complex planes will continue to rise more rapidly.
I asked about turbine owner operated planes and he said they are going up much faster. Owner Operated OH OH
 
Is it possible to partially insure the hull. I would not consider fully self insuring a $2 million. Can you risk share? Or buy hull insurance for half the value. Just a thought.
 
I’m up for renewal now, a tad low at $80k hull value, retract. I asked for the other options besides full flight coverage. Can’t see the plane going up without me, even if another is flying. Yes I known, tornadoes can be very random.

We’ll see, once it starts getting above $1,500 a year, I may entertain options.

I’ve not been burned yet, driving a new vehicle off the lot with only ‘liability’ coverage.
 
Your comment about the plane going without you. I didn’t want to mention it here but in fact, when you buy hull insurance, you are largely buying life insurance. Since standard life insurance won’t cover in flying accident (I’ve read) buy hull insurance and it will be a gift to your family.

pers on ally, the idea of paying 20 to 40k for a million of life insurance isn’t very attractive. And, I’m fortunate, I’m 70 and don’t need life insurance. I’m probably going to be skewered! Please understand that I am new and I’m a finance professor. My mind naturally goes in strange places.
 
Continuing this thought. The pilot is a risk to the company is only for accidents involving the plane flying. Can you buy hull insurance just for non flying events?
 
I’m up for renewal now, a tad low at $80k hull value, retract. I asked for the other options besides full flight coverage. Can’t see the plane going up without me, even if another is flying. Yes I known, tornadoes can be very random.

We’ll see, once it starts getting above $1,500 a year, I may entertain options.

I’ve not been burned yet, driving a new vehicle off the lot with only ‘liability’ coverage.

$80k loss is much easier to swallow than $2 million. These rates are high for a reason, low time pilots in high performance, high workload airplanes haven't generally done a good job.

Larry, there is a guy on Youtube, Malibu Pilot, who videos his flights. You can get an idea on what it's like to fly one of these machines. He does a pretty good job, although I occasionally shake my head and wonder what he was thinking. But to be fair, I occasionally do that with my own flying too.
 
Not all regular life insurance excludes light aircraft flying. Some even pay out for suicide(after 2 years), no I haven’t any plans.

With no insurance no one else has dibs on the scraps of the plane is destroyed, a slim recovery. I see most recreational flying for fun. If it’s a group of 4, with a schedule, often better to just jump through the hoops & go commercial.
 
You got ten years. When you turn 80 they won't insure you anymore for a retractable. I know guys getting pushed out of Mooneys because the insurance companies are worried they're not going to flip a switch.
 
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