IFR with sectionals

MAKG1 said:
He said he wouldn't fly without it. Even on a perfect day. If it provides additional SA under that circumstance, he's not a competent pilot.
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Just the latest example of the level of competency demonstrated by this driver. And consideration being given to being a "professional pilot". Another scary day in the airspace. Amazing.
 
Lol...a nice can of worms
 
MAKG1 said:
He said he wouldn't fly without it. Even on a perfect day. If it provides additional SA under that circumstance, he's not a competent pilot.
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A bit rough, and over dramatic imo.

Would you fly without a chart?? I know you "could" do it in your home area, but would you?
 
I haven't flown with a paper chart since my checkride :) MFD, Ipad, Ipad backup, Iphone... Pretty sure I wont need paper :)
 
Kritchlow said:
A bit rough, and over dramatic imo.

Would you fly without a chart?? I know you "could" do it in your home area, but would you?
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Not usually. I have most of the airspace memorized, but I couldn't tell you every local frequency and every Class B boundary from memory. Nor is it necessary to do so. Not at all the same thing. Flying cross country without a chart is irresponsible, rather like flying without a checklist. Flying without an iPad telling you your position is normal flying.

But I HAVE flown the pattern with no chart, so I guess the answer to your question is yes.
 
MAKG1 said:
But I HAVE flown the pattern with no chart, so I guess the answer to your question is yes.
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That's a really great analogy, because Rykymus totally meant he would never fly the pattern without a GPS moving map. Totally.
 
Why can't everyone here just be stoked that were all pilots flying GA? (for the most part). Help each other out, learn from each other, etc. There is this constant mantra of "oh wow I am clearly a better pilot than you".

Honestly I think everyone here is probably tired of hearing the same iPad vs. non-iPad argument. Beating a dead horse between the iPad vs. non-iPad subject. We have heard both sides of the story - God knows how many times.
 
PPC1052 said:
That's a really great analogy, because Rykymus totally meant he would never fly the pattern without a GPS moving map. Totally.
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Not appropriate to put words in someone else's mouth. He said he would not fly without it. Not that he wouldn't fly cross country.

Either way, a pilot who considers a lack of moving map to be a no-go needs training until that's no longer true.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not appropriate to put words in someone else's mouth.
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I would agree, but so often you are more than willing to make assumptions that aren't warranted. So, I see that defense as hollow.

As for me, I can see both sides. I would completely agree that if you can't fly without a moving map, then there are some deficiencies in your skills. On the other hand, for a weekend warrior flying for pleasure that chooses to fly another day when he doesn't have a moving map because he has no pressing need to go flying that day, that is not any reason to assume that the pilot is incompetent or incapable of flying without it.
 
labbadabba said:
I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.

Is this a bad habit?
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No, as long as you can easily access the enroute
 
CC268 said:
Why can't everyone here just be stoked that were all pilots flying GA? (for the most part). Help each other out, learn from each other, etc. There is this constant mantra of "oh wow I am clearly a better pilot than you".

Honestly I think everyone here is probably tired of hearing the same iPad vs. non-iPad argument. Beating a dead horse between the iPad vs. non-iPad subject. We have heard both sides of the story - God knows how many times.
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I agree with you. Flying is great whether you have a GPS on board or not.
 
Back in the day when the long XC for the private was 300 miles, not 150, I actually did a couple of them due to one not being endorsed properly. Both probably ended up being more than 400 miles total. My first was from South Expressway airport in Jonesboro GA which doesn't exist any more, to Eufaula, Panama City, Albany and back. The second was from Macon to Augusta, Columbia SC, Athens GA, then back to Macon. All done with paper sectionals and pilotage as taught.

But after a several year layoff, just getting back into flying and will the iPads now available and all this software, I'm going paperless. Could I do the other? Sure. But the electronic is much more convenient and less cluttering. Everything at your fingertips. But I couldn't care less how somebody else decides to do it. If they'd never do it without a magenta line, what do I care? I don't really care whether mine is bigger than yours or not, which basically seems what many of these threads seem to devolve into.
 
CC268 said:
Why can't everyone here just be stoked that were all pilots flying GA? (for the most part). Help each other out, learn from each other, etc. There is this constant mantra of "oh wow I am clearly a better pilot than you".

Honestly I think everyone here is probably tired of hearing the same iPad vs. non-iPad argument. Beating a dead horse between the iPad vs. non-iPad subject. We have heard both sides of the story - God knows how many times.
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BrianNC said:
Back in the day when the long XC for the private was 300 miles, not 150, I actually did a couple of them due to one not being endorsed properly. Both probably ended up being more than 400 miles total. My first was from South Expressway airport in Jonesboro GA which doesn't exist any more, to Eufaula, Panama City, Albany and back. The second was from Macon to Augusta, Columbia SC, Athens GA, then back to Macon. All done with paper sectionals and pilotage as taught.

But after a several year layoff, just getting back into flying and will the iPads now available and all this software, I'm going paperless. Could I do the other? Sure. But the electronic is much more convenient and less cluttering. Everything at your fingertips. But I couldn't care less how somebody else decides to do it. If they'd never do it without a magenta line, what do I care? I don't really care whether mine is bigger than yours or not, which basically seems what many of these threads seem to devolve into.
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I think it is about quality and depth of training.

All my X-Cs were done with pilotage, watch, compass. No GPS and no autopilot. Depth of knowledge and understanding helps. After the IR, I was taught G1000, autopilot, coupled approaches.

Get it all, or you're missing out.

(But NDBs suck.)
 
MAKG1 said:
Not usually. I have most of the airspace memorized, but I couldn't tell you every local frequency and every Class B boundary from memory. Nor is it necessary to do so. Not at all the same thing. Flying cross country without a chart is irresponsible, rather like flying without a checklist. Flying without an iPad telling you your position is normal flying.

But I HAVE flown the pattern with no chart, so I guess the answer to your question is yes.
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That's my point. You want a chart to enhance your SA. That's not only understandable, but commendable.

Likewise if someone wants an added layer of SA to satisfy their personal minimums, I think that is also responsible.
They are flying for fun, and there is no pressure to complete the mission.
I tell you what... in the airlines we fly with some pretty big stuff that's broken (legally differed under MEL), but I would never choose to fly for fun with the same equipment inop.
 
Kritchlow said:
That's my point. You want a chart to enhance your SA. That's not only understandable, but commendable.

Likewise if someone wants an added layer of SA to satisfy their personal minimums, I think that is also responsible.
They are flying for fun, and there is no pressure to complete the mission.
I tell you what... in the airlines we fly with some pretty big stuff that's broken (legally differed under MEL), but I would never choose to fly for fun with the same equipment inop.
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But a moving map in perfect conditions with a lot of landmarks around does absolutely nothing for SA. Those are easy -- and really common -- conditions where that particular poster lives. Right now, at his home airport, the METAR is KSCK 301855Z 30008KT 10SM CLR 28/14 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP126 T02830139. That 10 miles visibility is the maximum they ever report there. It's probably 50 miles or more; when I flew around there Monday, it was well over 100 miles; I could see Mt. Diablo from over KBLU easily at 10500. This is utterly typical in the summer. Every day.

So, what, exactly, is this "added layer of SA?" What do you get from a moving map that you shouldn't already have in these conditions?

Oh, and my tablet overheated and shut down during climbout for that trip (but curiously, not on the ground, despite it being hot as hell). I did not turn back. I even departed without a flight plan on the GTN650, as the plan was to follow I-80 over the mountains. And I didn't die. Magenta lines don't do a whole lot over high mountains. And moving maps don't do anything when the landmarks are that good.
 
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MAKG1 said:
But a moving map in perfect conditions with a lot of landmarks around does absolutely nothing for SA. Those are easy -- and really common -- conditions where that particular poster lives. Right now, at his home airport, the METAR is KSCK 301855Z 30008KT 10SM CLR 28/14 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP126 T02830139. That 10 miles visibility is the maximum they ever report there. It's probably 50 miles or more; when I flew around there Monday, it was well over 100 miles; I could see Mt. Diablo from over KBLU easily at 10500. This is utterly typical in the summer. Every day.

So, what, exactly, is this "added layer of SA?" What do you get from a moving map that you shouldn't already have in these conditions?
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I disagree. I think it clearly adds a layer of SA, even more so when venturing into unfamiliar areas.
 
Kritchlow said:
I disagree. I think it clearly adds a layer of SA, even more so when venturing into unfamiliar areas.
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What, exactly, is the SA this adds?

No buzzwords. Say what the advantage is.

And the poster did not qualify his statement for unfamiliar areas. He said he would not fly.
 
MAKG1 said:
What, exactly, is the SA this adds?

No buzzwords. Say what the advantage is.

And the poster did not qualify his statement for unfamiliar areas. He said he would not fly.
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Really???? No kidding?? You need someone to tell you the SA benefits of a moving map??
 
It does add SA, unless there is already a good MFD in the panel; but even then, it does add redundancy, if not legally used alone.

But again, it is important that one remember that if one had the compass/watch/sectional training, it adds depth of knowledge, which is good. Take everything, but don't let it clutter the cabin or confuse or fluster you.
 
spiderweb said:
It does add SA, unless there is already a good MFD in the panel; but even then, it does add redundancy, if not legally used alone.

But again, it is important that one remember that if one had the compass/watch/sectional training, it adds depth of knowledge, which is good. Take everything, but don't let it clutter the cabin or confuse or fluster you.
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We have a MFD in the Airbus, but it shows 1/100 of the info a moving map on an iPad does.

The good avionics always start in the smaller airplanes and work their way to the airliners.
Corporate --> Small GA --> Airlines
 
Kritchlow said:
Really???? No kidding?? You need someone to tell you the SA benefits of a moving map??
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Under perfect conditions, yes I do.

I'll submit there isn't any.

I'll also suggest you haven't thought about what that means. Repeating a buzzword while refusing to elaborate is really good evidence that you don't understand the buzzword.

It won't actualize your synergy either.

First question: define situational awareness.

I've been unmasking BS for many years. Don't insult my intelligence
 
MAKG1 said:
Under perfect conditions, yes I do.

I'll submit there isn't any.

I'll also suggest you haven't thought about what that means. Repeating a buzzword while refusing to elaborate is really good evidence that you don't understand the buzzword.

It won't actualize your synergy either.

First question: define situational awareness.

I've been unmasking BS for many years. Don't insult my intelligence
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I have no clue what you're talking about.
To say a moving map doesn't enhance SA is just arguing for the sake of arguing. It's like arguing that the sky isn't blue.
No clue in heaven what you mean by a buzzword.
 
Kritchlow said:
I have no clue what you're talking about.
To say a moving map doesn't enhance SA is just arguing for the sake of arguing. It's like arguing that the sky isn't blue.
No clue in heaven what you mean by a buzzword.
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I was right. You don't understand it.

Let me start. In the context of a moving map, SA means you know where you are. If you already know where you are by just being a competent pilot, nothing adds SA in that context. You cannot know your position to better than 100% certainty.

It's a buzzword because saying "SA" makes you turn your brain off. That's the point of buzzwords. If you can't define the term -- and you clearly can't -- using it is an error.
 
MAKG1 said:
I was right. You don't understand it.

Let me start. In the context of a moving map, SA means you know where you are. If you already know where you are by just being a competent pilot, nothing adds SA in that context. You cannot know your position to better than 100% certainty.

It's a buzzword because saying "SA" makes you turn your brain off. That's the point of buzzwords. If you can't define the term -- and you clearly can't -- using it is an error.
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Ahh.... than by that logic one never needs a backup because we are all perfect. We never make mistakes, and never need to cross check anything we do.

I will go with the poster that wants the map display over any pilot that thinks he's beyond making errors.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, it does. It means you are unable to fly on a perfect day without something telling you what to do. That is, rather precisely, a lesser pilot. The iPad is not PIC. You are.

Honestly, if you can't navigate the local terrain in visual conditions without some gadget to tell you where you are, you have no business in the air. It's not at all difficult here. From where you live, you can reference nearly anything to Mt. Diablo or various large highways. Compass headings and timings also work, as long as you're precise. You should know by now where the local restricted airspace is by sight -- it's not hard to spot. As well as where the alert area is.

Heck, tomorrow, I'm making a CAP mission pilot candidate find and execute a latitude/longitude grid search in isolated terrain with no electronic aids, as a practice for his qualification ride. I've no doubt he will do it. The last place you want to be heads down is 1000 AGL flying slowly in mountainous terrain. Bad things can happen in a real hurry when your iThing is doing your thinking for you.
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I swear, sometimes I think people on POA just read whatever the hell they want from a post. How in the hell does "choosing" not to fly without a moving map make you a lesser pilot? Did I say I "can't" navigate without it? No, I didn't. And if you could read you'd see that. Hell I even went on to say that I regularly DO use paper and no moving map just to make sure I remember how IN CASE the moving map fails.

Honestly, if you seriously think choosing to use the moving map and a digital chart instead of antiquated pieces of paper and a whiz wheel makes someone a lesser pilot, you shouldn't even be flying, let alone teaching others how to fly.
 
Rykymus said:
I swear, sometimes I think people on POA just read whatever the hell they want from a post. How in the hell does "choosing" not to fly without a moving map make you a lesser pilot? Did I say I "can't" navigate without it? No, I didn't. And if you could read you'd see that. Hell I even went on to say that I regularly DO use paper and no moving map just to make sure I remember how IN CASE the moving map fails.

Honestly, if you seriously think choosing to use the moving map and a digital chart instead of antiquated pieces of paper and a whiz wheel makes someone a lesser pilot, you shouldn't even be flying, let alone teaching others how to fly.
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While I agree in principal, I'm not sure your last paragraph was exactly what he was trying to say.

That said, you keep on doing what you're comfortable with. I will support that all day long.
 
Wow. Just f**n wow.

Okay, since you people LOVE to put words into people's mouth, I'll spell it out for you so you can understand it more clearly.

If I'm going to fly out of my local area, on a cross-country flight from point A to point B, I want that moving map. I want the GPS. I want the paper chart in my bag as a backup. If I don't have everyone of those things, I'm not going to make the trip. It has nothing to do with whether or not I can, or cannot navigate and fly safely without a damned iPad. It's that I want every tool available to ensure that my flight is executed as efficiently, and as safely as possible. Anything less than that level of preparation is irresponsible.

Yeah, I can fly just fine with a whiz wheel and a paper chart. I simply choose not to as a matter of course. These days, those methods are "backups" not primary methods of navigation and flight planning. And the FAA knows this. That's why they no longer require paper to be used in a checkride. They are antiquated, and do not provide even half the level of SA as your average digital EFB with a moving map.

If you want to continue using whatever you use to navigate and plan your flights, that's fine. That's on you. That's your choice. But when you put someone else down simply because they don't believe as you, that just shows that you're a fool.
 
So very weak. Keep using the crutches. Might as well issue a NOTAM before you depart to alert all to your presence.
 
Rykymus said:
I swear, sometimes I think people on POA just read whatever the hell they want from a post.
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Sometimes? On this topic, you can almost bet on this particular reading, and even identify in advance who it will be.

I read the post pretty the same as you did.

But I guess I'll have to confess to being a bad pilot who uses a crutch. I won't take off without my charts on board either.
 
bobmrg said:
In 1998, a Lear carrying Frank Sinatra's mother crashed into mountains east of San Diego. I can't find the accident report, but as I recall the operator of the charter company said "We're a jet company, we don't carry sectional charts" or something to that effect. As to whether they took off in darkness hoping to pick up an IFR clearance enroute, that was part of the investigation.

Bob
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21 years prior to 1998.

In those days KPSP had a non-radar approach control, sort of like Helena, Montana has today.

The Lear was on an IFR flight plan to Las Vegas. The clearance was via direct PSP VOR, airway routing to GOFFS VOR, etc. to Las Vegas. This non-radar routing required a right turn to PSP VOR (They departed Runway 31L). The Lear crew were "radar babies." They had no idea that KPSP was a non-radar approach/departure control. So, they simply remained on runway heading assuming they were being vectored. They eventually met up with 11,500' Mt. San Gorgonio at about 9,500 feet. LA Center was expecting the hand-off (center radar coverage is about 7,000 to 8,000 in that area). A center supervisor saw the Lear show up on the radar with an imminent CFIT. The supervisor got on the landline with Palm Springs approach to tell the Lear to turn east immediately. Alas, it was too late.

This was one of those major winter rain storm days. Solid clouds from perhaps 1,200 msl to well above the mountain tops.

A few months later the FAA diverted a new terminal radar scheduled for KSBA to KPSP instead.
 
MAKG1 said:
I was right. You don't understand it.

Let me start. In the context of a moving map, SA means you know where you are. If you already know where you are by just being a competent pilot, nothing adds SA in that context. You cannot know your position to better than 100% certainty.

It's a buzzword because saying "SA" makes you turn your brain off. That's the point of buzzwords. If you can't define the term -- and you clearly can't -- using it is an error.
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Situational awareness most certainly does NOT merely mean "you know where you are." It means far more than that.

For good situational awareness, you'd like to know as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and as updated as possible about your ENTIRE situation--not just your location in the sky.

You can't calculate the effects of wind, resulting track, fuel burn, etc. 1,000 times per second, can you?

Thus, having a good flight planning program running on your iPad does increase one's situational awareness because 1) it performs many calculations, far faster than a human mind is able to do, and 2) it puts these elements together quickly, in an easy and comprehensible way, thus helping the pilot to make more informed and up-to-date decisions.
 
If you can't make a decision anyway, the moving map can't help you and you should find another hobby.
 
KA550 said:
If you can't make a decision anyway, the moving map can't help you and you should find another hobby.
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Yes, but the inverse is true, thus:

If you know how to make decisions, the moving map (especially if it includes good, overall flight planning elements) WILL help you.
 
Sectionals are a crutch! ;)
 
Nope. Needing a moving map with own aircraft position to be able to takeoff is the crutch.
 
KA550 said:
Nope. Needing a moving map with own aircraft position to be able to takeoff is the crutch.
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Your words, fella. Not mine. No where did I say I "need" a moving map, only that I choose not to fly without having it available to me. It's no different than any other personal minimum one sets.

Technology is only a crutch if you let it become one. When used correctly, it can (but is not guaranteed to) enhance flight safety. However, intelligence is required to recognize that fact, which many here seem to be sourly lacking.
 
Rykymus said:
If you want to continue using whatever you use to navigate and plan your flights, that's fine . . . But when you put someone else down simply because they don't believe as you, that just shows that you're a fool.
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Rykymus said:
. . . a whiz wheel and a paper chart .. . These days, those methods are "backups" not primary methods of navigation and flight planning . . . They are antiquated . . .
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Rykymus said:
Anything less than that level of preparation is irresponsible.
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Talk out both sides of your mouth very often? You berate him for putting you down, say "it's fine" to plan and fly however you want, and that only fools put down people who believe differently.

Then it's "irresponsible" to not fly without at least two GPS units leading you on, with electronic and paper charts. Then paper charts (that you prefer not to use) are "antiquated."

Whatever happened to "when you put someone else down simply because they don't believe as you, that just shows that you're a fool"? Or does that lofty sentiment only apply to other people when they are discussing you, and doesn't apply to your own expressed views about others???
 
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