Glider Add-on but will need BFR soon

[cocolos]

So I have my private but I will be coming up on my biennial soon but unfortunately I won't have time to fly until a couple months from now. Would I need to get my BFR done before I can start trying to get a glider add-on?

 

[MauleSkinner]

So I have my private but I will be coming up on my biennial soon but unfortunately I won't have time to fly until a couple months from now. Would I need to get my BFR done before I can start trying to get a glider add-on?

Neither the glider dual nor solo will require a current flight review since you're not currently qualified in the glider category. The checkride for the glider rating will count as a flight review.

 

[cocolos]

Sweet! That's what I thought but wasn't sure since it's an add-on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flyingron]

Neither the glider dual nor solo will require a current flight review since you're not currently qualified in the glider category. The checkride for the glider rating will count as a flight review.

Say what?

No, he needs a BFR to be PIC (solo the glider). Only STUDENT PILOTS are exempted from needing a flight review while training. He's now got a private rather than a student pilot certificate. The rules for adding ratings are different than getting them initially. 61.56 doesn't say anything about exempting those not rated.

 

[poadeleted20]

Neither the glider dual nor solo will require a current flight review since you're not currently qualified in the glider category. The checkride for the glider rating will count as a flight review.

This Ron agrees with the other Ron on this point. This is a PP-ASEL, not a Student Pilot, so the exception in 61.56(g) does not apply. I don't see any way a PP-ASEL can fly as PIC in a glider (i.e., when solo) on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement without a current flight review or equivalent.

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has--

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor; and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.
​

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed any of the following need not accomplish the flight review required by this section:

(1) A pilot proficiency check or practical test conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege.
(2) A practical test conducted by an examiner for the issuance of a flight instructor certificate, an additional rating on a flight instructor certificate, renewal of a flight instructor certificate, or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate.
​

(e) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored pilot proficiency award program need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.
...
(g) A student pilot need not accomplish the flight review required by this section provided the student pilot is undergoing training for a certificate and has a current solo flight endorsement as required under Sec. 61.87 of this part.

And since this person isn't rated in a glider, they can't do a flight review in a glider as part of the pre-solo glider training.

 

[Henning]

So I have my private but I will be coming up on my biennial soon but unfortunately I won't have time to fly until a couple months from now. Would I need to get my BFR done before I can start trying to get a glider add-on?

No, but no worries, you won't need it, and the glider add on resets your FR clock.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, but no worries, you won't need it, and the glider add on resets your FR clock.

Henning needs to re-read 14 CFR 61.56, as the 61.56(g) exemption applies only to Student Pilots, and not to PP's flying solo in another category/class on 61.31(d)(2) endorsements.

 

[EdFred]

What about the faux solo exemption - the whole acts as PIC, but isn't really PIC because the FAA caved to insurance companies - or is that only for commercial?

 

[poadeleted20]

What about the faux solo exemption - the whole acts as PIC, but isn't really PIC because the FAA caved to insurance companies - or is that only for commercial?

Only for commercial. Nothing about that in 61.109, only 61.129. And since this is an additional category rating at the PP level (not additional class), per 61.63, the applicable aeronautical experience requirements of 61.109 must all be met.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Oops...

 

[BillTIZ]

This Ron agrees with the other Ron on this point. This is a PP-ASEL, not a Student Pilot, so the exception in 61.56(g) does not apply. I don't see any way a PP-ASEL can fly as PIC in a glider (i.e., when solo) on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement without a current flight review or equivalent.

And since this person isn't rated in a glider, they can't do a flight review in a glider as part of the pre-solo glider training.

Interesting review.
So how does the "have not flown for 10+ years" pilot get rated in sailplanes without an airplane flight review?

The pilot is endorsed under 61.31(d)(2) for solo operations required to complete his part 91 solo requirement for the rating after having recieved training to the level of his certificate to act as PIC in an aircraft that he is not rated. The 61.31 endorsement is only valid as long as he is "in training" towards the new rating.

And how many countless DPE and FSDO examiners have completed the glider check ride after appropriate review of log books and endorsements and never raised the question of solo flights under 61.31 with no flight review?

Your analysis of the FARs does not follow current practices.
I would suggest that an instructor endorsement under 61.31 authorizes solo operation in that aircraft and not in an aircraft that he is already rated and negates the need for a flight review.

 

[hook_dupin]

Though I've never actually heard of it being done, the OP can apply for a student pilot rating from a DPE or FSDO per 61.85. The "if/then" table in AC61-65E, paragraph 11 seems to bear this out.

With that in hand, the OP can legally get a solo endorsement and fly gliders solo pre-check without a BFR per 61.56(g). A successful check ride will result in a BFR per 61.56(d)(1).




...as a homework assignment, I think I may write a petition for rule making such that a pilot certificate at any level in any category counts as a student pilot certificate in any other category.

 

[poadeleted20]

Interesting review.
So how does the "have not flown for 10+ years" pilot get rated in sailplanes without an airplane flight review?

As the regs exist? S/he doesn't. I'll point that out to those concerned and see what they do with it.

The pilot is endorsed under 61.31(d)(2) for solo operations required to complete his part 91 solo requirement for the rating after having recieved training to the level of his certificate to act as PIC in an aircraft that he is not rated.

Part 91 has nothing to do with this. However, if that was a typo, and you meant the 61.109 solo requirements, then yes, that is essentially true.

The 61.31 endorsement is only valid as long as he is "in training" towards the new rating.

Correct.

And how many countless DPE and FSDO examiners have completed the glider check ride after appropriate review of log books and endorsements and never raised the question of solo flights under 61.31 with no flight review?

I don't know, and it really doesn't matter.

Your analysis of the FARs does not follow current practices.

I have no idea about any "current practices" of which you speak, as I've never heard of a DPE or FSDO Inspector giving a practical test to a someone other than a Student Pilot without confirming that the pilot has a current flight review.

I would suggest that an instructor endorsement under 61.31 authorizes solo operation in that aircraft and not in an aircraft that he is already rated and negates the need for a flight review.

If you are suggesting a change to the regulations, I think it's a good suggestion. If you are suggesting that the flight review is not required in that situation by the regulations as they exist, I think you are wrong. So, can you point to anything in Part 61 to support that position?

 

[poadeleted20]

Though I've never actually heard of it being done, the OP can apply for a student pilot rating from a DPE or FSDO per 61.85.

No can do -- you are not permitted to hold more than one pilot certificate at a time.

 

[BillTIZ]

Yes Capt. Ron, a typo, 61 for qualification, not 91.

A survey of glider DPE and FSDO examiners may reveal some interesting statistics about checking for a current flight review to an "add-on" rating. Same for Fixed wing to rotary or to ballon or glider.

Another interesting endorsement for the glider add-on pilot. A true student pilot does not require the aero tow or ground launch endorsement to solo (61.87(i)). But he will after the check ride (61.31(j)). The add-on pilot does need it to solo as he is not endorsed under 61.87(i). The training requirements for 61.87(i) includes the launch method training.

 

[hook_dupin]

No can do -- you are not permitted to hold more than one pilot certificate at a time.

I disagree with that.

There's nothing in 61.83 or FAA 8900.2 that states that holders of a pilot certificate in one category are ineligible for a student pilot certificate.

How exactly then do airplane pilots get the privilege to solo in another category (say gliders or rotary wing) when their airplane pilot certificate does not qualify them for that privilage because of 61.31(d)(1)?

There are certainly plenty of dual-rated pilots out there, and there definitely isn't a rule that states that "any pilot certificate counts as a student pilot certificate."

 

[BillTIZ]

I disagree with that.

There's nothing in 61.83 or FAA 8900.2 that states that holders of a pilot certificate in one category are ineligible for a student pilot certificate.

How exactly then do airplane pilots get the privilege to solo in another category (say gliders or rotary wing) when their airplane pilot certificate does not qualify them for that privilage because of 61.31(d)(1)?

There are certainly plenty of dual-rated pilots out there, and there definitely isn't a rule that states that "any pilot certificate counts as a student pilot certificate."

Read back through the posts, they are endorsed under 61.31(d)(2) for solo PiC operations in aircraft they do not hold a rating for.

 

[hook_dupin]

Read back through the posts, they are endorsed under 61.31(d)(2) for solo PiC operations in aircraft they do not hold a rating for.

Ok.. That's right.

I still think you can go get a student pilot certificate so you fall under 61.56(g)

...except that nobody does because it is dumb.

 

[poadeleted20]

I disagree with that.

Disagree all you want, but the FAA won't issue a second pilot certificate to someone who already has one unless the one they have is voided.

How exactly then do airplane pilots get the privilege to solo in another category (say gliders or rotary wing) when their airplane pilot certificate does not qualify them for that privilage because of 61.31(d)(1)?

Read the next subparagraph -- 61.31(d)(2).

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must-- (1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or
(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.

There are certainly plenty of dual-rated pilots out there,

True, but all their pilot ratings are on one pilot certificate. For example, if I went out and earned a glider rating at the PP level, my old certificate would become void, and my new certificate would still say "AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT" on the front, but on the back where it says "AIRPLANE SINGLE & MULTIENGINE LAND", it would still say that but also say "GLIDER LIMITED TO PRIVATE PRIVILEGES".

 

[BillTIZ]

Ok.. That's right.

I still think you can go get a student pilot certificate so you fall under 61.56(g)

...except that nobody does because it is dumb.

Not if you already have a pilot certificate.
See Capt Ron's post.

 

[hook_dupin]

Not if you already have a pilot certificate.
See Capt Ron's post.

Someone point out that rule. I think you can.

 

[Lindberg]

I've never heard of a DPE or FSDO Inspector giving a practical test to a someone other than a Student Pilot without confirming that the pilot has a current flight review.

You might find your nearest glider DPE and ask. I think you'll be surprised. Regardless, is there any rule that says you can't be a certificated pilot AND a student pilot?

 

[poadeleted20]

You might find your nearest glider DPE and ask.

I will. Got one right here on the Eastern Shore.

I think you'll be surprised. Regardless, is there any rule that says you can't be a certificated pilot AND a student pilot?

Let's put it this way -- just try to apply for a Student Pilot certificate while checking "yes" in block M on the 8710-1.

Block M. Do You Hold or Have You Ever Held An FAA Pilot​

Certificate?​

Mark yes or no. (NOTE: A student pilot certificate is a pilot
certificate.) If. Yes, complete Blocks M1, M2, and M3.
​

​

 

[Lindberg]

I will. Got one right here on the Eastern Shore.

Please report back. I know what the local one would say.

Let's put it this way -- just try to apply for a Student Pilot certificate while checking "yes" in block M on the 8710-1.
[/LEFT]

Does a third-class medical no longer count as a student-pilot certificate? I never had to actually apply for one.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does a third-class medical no longer count as a student-pilot certificate? I never had to actually apply for one.

A Third Class medical certificate has never counted as a Student Pilot certificate. One has always been able obtain a combined Third Class medical and Student Pilot certificate (although I understand that may be going away), but not if one already holds a higher level of pilot certificate -- then all you can get is a plain Third Class medical which does not serve as a Student Pilot certificate.