Fixing a Crashed Car

asechrest

asechrest

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asechrest
Howdy.

My significant other will be in need of a new vehicle at some point in the not too distant future. As a not-terribly-wealthy dude, a new BMW, Land Rover, Lexus, or the like, is probably not in our future. I am also typically conservative with my money. Case in point: I drive a Toyota Corolla with 226k miles and I have no desire to get a new vehicle because it is incredibly dependable and has treated me kindly (and because I'd rather spend my money on airplane rental than a car payment).

My girlfriend, on the other hand, is not so keen on driving a beater. And her Chevy Malibu is not such a gem of a vehicle. Rust, engine trouble, and general wear and tear mean that we'll look for a car for her soon.

A good friend of mine thinks we should buy a crashed car and fix it up for her, saving a third or a half off retail for a similar vehicle. He is a gear head and a parts manager at a luxury dealership, and I know factually that he's done this numerous times and he currently drives one of the crashed vehicles he repaired. This weekend I joined him for some Memorial Day fun and found him repairing his cousin's Kawasaki Ninja (including frame damage). I am not such a gear head but incredibly eager to learn, and I find the prospect of learning about vehicle repair while procuring a decent vehicle for my SO to be intriguing. My friend has promised we could not only keep the vehicle at his shop to work on, but that he'd help me during the entire process.

He likes to get his crashed cars here: http://alsautopa.com/. He picks one he likes and has it shipped down to FL for ~$500. He says he can generally assess what kind of work needs to be done on the vehicle just by looking at their admittedly detailed photos. As a layman, I hear horror stories about "frame damage," but he seems relatively unconcerned, saying he can typically pick a vehicle without frame damage just by the photos, and that a small amount of frame damage is fixable.

Given the incredible wealth of knowledge here, and the fact that a lot of you have forgotten more than I'll ever know about cars, what are your thoughts? What would I be getting myself into? I assume there's no conventional auto loan for a vehicle like this. I have the liquid cash to purchase the crashed car outright, though using such a big chunk of liquid cash on a hunk of mangled metal is scary to me. I also have the ability to secure an up to 48 month savings secured personal loan at 2.7% at my credit union, so the potential to finance a portion of this and retain some liquid cash seems to be a possibility.

Generally, I'm very eager to learn all I can about cars and car repair, and I bought a nice floor jack and a set of tools a year or so ago for just this purpose. Do you think my goal of fulfilling this desire, while at the same time ending up with a nice vehicle for my SO to drive, is a realistic thing?

Thank you in advance.
 
I've done this, but have only purchased cars at insurance auctions I've attended- Never merely looking at pictures on-line.
I need to physically see the car before I bid.

While fun to have a project, it takes time and space. Don't expect to be on the road in a week or two unless you order all new parts at retail prices. If you do that, it would have been cheaper to buy an undamaged car. If you're on a budget, rebuilding a car will take quite a bit of time.
Best way is to buy another parts car- Lotsa parts cheap, extra parts can be sold, further reducing the cost. The downside is the extra space needed for storing two cars, and dealing with packaging and shipping parts that you sell, then getting rid of the stripped hulk when you're done with it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Can also help with acquisition and wisdom about the process.
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That is truly kind. I'd like to PM you at some point. I am hesitant but excited by the prospect of learning. Thanks, from one aviator to another!
 
it's like building a plane: build a plane or fix up a wreck because you want to build or fix. Don't do it as a means to an end.

My little VW lost a battle with a big oldsmobuick but i was able to stretch it back out to normal length before replacing the fender.
The VW is probably not worth saving but keeping one running is a fun hobby
 

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Save the time, trouble, tool purchases and busted knuckles; reclaim your upcoming evenings and weekends. For one-third savings, buy a two-year-old certified used car from the dealer, still under warranty.

I've bought four one-year olds and one two-year-old this way, with nary an issue. When the new car gets home, it's typically lost 15% of its value; by one year, it's in the 20-25% range.

I bought a $26,000 Infiniti, the previous year's demonstrator model with 10,054 miles and a 5yr/60K warranty for $19,500. In November '12, I picked up a 2011 Altima S for $15,500 at the Nissan dealer. My first was a ten-month-old Accord from the Honda dealer [factory sticker was $14K; dealer price unknown; I paid $10K]. No pain, no new car smell, 20-25% savings on one year old car under original factory warranty.

Or you can buy a wreck, get some tools and learn how to use a Mig welder some weekends. I much prefer TiG, but that doesn't work on sheet metal.
 
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Those cars have salvage titles. Florida requires a state inspection after the car is rebuilt before they will issue a license. Check with your DMV. The new title will be branded salvage so future buyers will know its history. This will affect future value. I have owned numerous salvage title cars. Generally you get a newer car for as much as 50% less than you might pay without that history. Typically the damage history will remain evident after repairs are completed; this will vary from minor cosmetics to poor alignment and tire wear issues.
 
JHW said:
My little VW lost a battle with a big oldsmobuick
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those old VW "trucks" are both rare and kinda cool, especially if it's a diesel. Good on ya for saving the old girl.
 
You've got a mentor, with experience and resources. I had the same in the beginning and figure I have saved tens of thousands over the years by fixing my own vehicles (extending that savings to airplane repair now as well).

Do it at least once, then decide.
 
asechrest said:
Howdy.

My significant other will be in need of a new vehicle at some point in the not too distant future. As a not-terribly-wealthy dude, a new BMW, Land Rover, Lexus, or the like, is probably not in our future. I am also typically conservative with my money. Case in point: I drive a Toyota Corolla with 226k miles and I have no desire to get a new vehicle because it is incredibly dependable and has treated me kindly (and because I'd rather spend my money on airplane rental than a car payment).

My girlfriend, on the other hand, is not so keen on driving a beater. And her Chevy Malibu is not such a gem of a vehicle. Rust, engine trouble, and general wear and tear mean that we'll look for a car for her soon.

A good friend of mine thinks we should buy a crashed car and fix it up for her, saving a third or a half off retail for a similar vehicle. He is a gear head and a parts manager at a luxury dealership, and I know factually that he's done this numerous times and he currently drives one of the crashed vehicles he repaired. This weekend I joined him for some Memorial Day fun and found him repairing his cousin's Kawasaki Ninja (including frame damage). I am not such a gear head but incredibly eager to learn, and I find the prospect of learning about vehicle repair while procuring a decent vehicle for my SO to be intriguing. My friend has promised we could not only keep the vehicle at his shop to work on, but that he'd help me during the entire process.

He likes to get his crashed cars here: http://alsautopa.com/. He picks one he likes and has it shipped down to FL for ~$500. He says he can generally assess what kind of work needs to be done on the vehicle just by looking at their admittedly detailed photos. As a layman, I hear horror stories about "frame damage," but he seems relatively unconcerned, saying he can typically pick a vehicle without frame damage just by the photos, and that a small amount of frame damage is fixable.

Given the incredible wealth of knowledge here, and the fact that a lot of you have forgotten more than I'll ever know about cars, what are your thoughts? What would I be getting myself into? I assume there's no conventional auto loan for a vehicle like this. I have the liquid cash to purchase the crashed car outright, though using such a big chunk of liquid cash on a hunk of mangled metal is scary to me. I also have the ability to secure an up to 48 month savings secured personal loan at 2.7% at my credit union, so the potential to finance a portion of this and retain some liquid cash seems to be a possibility.

Generally, I'm very eager to learn all I can about cars and car repair, and I bought a nice floor jack and a set of tools a year or so ago for just this purpose. Do you think my goal of fulfilling this desire, while at the same time ending up with a nice vehicle for my SO to drive, is a realistic thing?

Thank you in advance.
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Every brand of car has its loyalists, and those loyalists tend to gather on the Internet and create forums for those cars. They're a good place to learn about auto repair and maintenance, as well as the particular pirfalls and problems of various years and models of those cars. Also, most of the forums include professional mechanics who also are loyal to those brands and love sharing their knowledge among their members. The amount of wisdom available for free is astonishing.

So if you have even a vague interest in a particular car, I suggest that you find and visit the relevant forum. It's out there somewhere. Usually you don't have to register if all you want to do is read.

-Rich
 
I do something similar.. show up with trailer, cash and buy cars cheap with bad head gaskets etc...

I don't mess with major body work though. Generally want something with relatively low miles, clean title (no salvage title), good body/interior but needs a major repair the owner does not want to pay for or tackle himself. Usually the $2500 estimate from the dealer turns out to be $500 if you do it yourself.
 
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JHW said:
it's like building a plane: build a plane or fix up a wreck because you want to build or fix. Don't do it as a means to an end.

My little VW lost a battle with a big oldsmobuick but i was able to stretch it back out to normal length before replacing the fender.
The VW is probably not worth saving but keeping one running is a fun hobby
Click to expand...

No offense, but that almost looks like a "Here hold my beer" picture
 
Body work is as much art as mechanics. I'm like Ren, I find a car that may need major or even modest mech work to get going. For a modern car it absolutely must have a clear title. If it just needs paint, I might get it for a good price, but I don't do paint anymore. Just too much hassle with chemistry, and booth, sanding, finishing, etc. Lots of time eaten up on body work.

I've found cars in people's yard, and at mechanics shops, and from word of mouth. Usually, the breakers cars are 'rebuildable' but the savings involved in sweat is pretty thin. If it was commercially viable to rebuild cars, they wouldn't be total loss, and salvage value.

Having said that, living in TX I get a bird's eye view of cars and trucks being towed down to Mexico all the time. You can see them every day on I35, and other roads with the bumpers removed and a tow bar hooked to the front, being towed by another rolling wreck. Since the labor costs are far lower in Mexico, it's common for cars that are good rollers to go there, be fixed up, sold in Mexico, or if they are desirable models to come back across and be sold in the US.

Since I know what to look for, I don't get burned, but many have been burned. Stories of cars welded together to make one car, stories of airbags filled with newspaper, cheap grade bolts in the suspension, and other stuff has me pretty careful with any car that has had repair work done by independents. Some are good -- some are horrible. Telling the difference can be a challenge. I'd say stick with the good used, or if you want to learn DIY look for something that isn't a salvage title, but still needs body work.
 
asechrest said:
Howdy.

Generally, I'm very eager to learn all I can about cars and car repair, and I bought a nice floor jack and a set of tools a year or so ago for just this purpose. Do you think my goal of fulfilling this desire, while at the same time ending up with a nice vehicle for my SO to drive, is a realistic thing?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

Way more important than "a nice floor jack" are a quality set of jack stands - they could save your life. And yes, this is a realistic goal. Your SO may even find it romantic if she has roots in the Charlotte area.
 
This is good input.

The company my friend uses (linked in OP) to obtain the vehicles appears to be a quite large, legitimate operation. Some language on their website indicates they are obtaining these cars from insurance companies. Should I have much concern that these are welded-together horror shows like DocMirror mentions above?

My friend seems to find a happy medium between cost savings and doing everything himself. He won't hesitate to "outsource" some of the repair work that doesn't make sense for him to do. I believe he's described, for example, buying the body pieces for a front end and then having the body shop fit it. He says he still comes out far ahead of the cost for like-kind used. (He's done this over the years as a profit-making venture.)

My primary concern is getting into a situation where repair costs balloon out of control. These are all newer model year vehicles and he says he typically chooses front-end damage to repair. I'd like to understand what the possibilities are as far as surprise costs. Buying based on website photos and descriptions is also a bit scary, but I wonder what the alternative is? Auction?
 
skylanerg said:
Way more important than "a nice floor jack" are a quality set of jack stands - they could save your life. And yes, this is a realistic goal. Your SO may even find it romantic if she has roots in the Charlotte area.
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Thanks. I've got two of those as well. I've done a bit of work on my own car now; oil changes, tire rotations, brakes and rotors, thermostat replacement (edit: oh and front strut replacement), but that's about it. Lots to learn.
 
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docmirror said:
I've found cars in people's yard, and at mechanics shops, and from word of mouth. Usually, the breakers cars are 'rebuildable' but the savings involved in sweat is pretty thin. If it was commercially viable to rebuild cars, they wouldn't be total loss, and salvage value.
Click to expand...

Doc: Thanks for your comments. This one concerns me. I don't mind the sweat equity. I fact, that part sounds fun, if for no other reason than I'm learning something that I can use in the future.

But what I do care about is money and risk. I would be lying if I said a portion of this idea wasn't about saving some cash. And I want the possibility of this going completely south to be low.

My friend has two vehicles now that he's repairing and then will sell. He does so for profit; not tons of it, but definitely some profit. Usually multiple thousands, he says. And that's his acquisition and repair cost vs. re-sale value (which is lower than used because it's on a rebuilt title). Since this would be a vehicle I plan to use for many years, the comparison I've been working under is acquisition and repair cost vs. cost to buy clean title used in the market. Is this right?

Thanks.
 
The issue is the salvage title. Let me use an example that I know about and that's the VW Golf/GTI.

http://alsautopa.com/Rebuildable.php?StockNumber=74023 is a 2012 GTI, that is popular for the young folks. A decent low mileage used one will go for around $20k, give or take.

Al wants $9700, maybe you get it from him for $9500(there's a reason he's got that price in there). So you have a bit over $10k to spend in materials and maybe a bit of pro labor. I chose this example cuz the bags didn't pop. This is pretty important due to the price of the bags and the controller.

Note the front bumper is pretty decent, and it doesn't look deformed. This, and the fact the bags are good means it'll be a good candidate for DIY repair. I can see about $1500 in parts if you use decent materials. You can buy a fender for $40, bumper cover for $140, hood $120, etc. the other bits add up to maybe a grand if you go with cheap parts. Good VW parts are a lot more, and it could go over $3000 for all new VW materials. Don't forget the grill and trim bits. some of the stuff is in the trunk, so you may get away pretty good. Let's say you have $1500 in parts with the cooling bits as well. some parts are going to be dealer only. You'll get a parts ref and make a big long list of stuff to take to VW, tell them you are fixing a crash and they'll total it up for you. Some of it you can find in a breakers yard, but often the same things you need, are the things that always get smashed, so the supply of good used 'xxx' parts is often limited(front bumper cover, frex).

Now, you have to figure your labor. If it's free, it's free. But I'll warn you, putting one of these together the first time with no history of doing it before takes extra time. once you get it all put together, it'll need to be painted so you take the trim back off and have it paint matched from the fenders forward. Call that work at $1600 including paint and shop stuff. Then you put the trim back on, have it inspected and it should be good to go.

Let's set aside $500 for surprise stuff. The cost in materials and paint work is $3100 plus the $9500 which puts you at ~$13,100 for a car that is ok, but still salvage. Figure the salvage discount on this car title to be 20% and you are still ahead a few thou.

This example works and I wouldn't mind doing it if I had the space to work on, and the time to invest. Other cars have other problems that are going to cost far more, and take much more time. Since you don't know the specifics of any car, you're taking a risk, but not too much if you look carefully.

Of course, please don't use my numbers as gospel, but I think it's pretty close. If I wanted a car to drive for a long time, and didn't care about the salvage resale, it would make sense. It'll also take you a month or so to get all the bits, and assemble correctly. Plan accordingly, and try not to rush it. All those elec connectors have to go in the right place, and there's a bunch of them.
 
Here's an example of what you want to stay far, far away from.

http://alsautopa.com/Rebuildable.php?StockNumber=73274

Doesn't look too bad in the pics but what you can't really see will cost a ton to repair. Look at the right rear wheel. You can see the rear suspension is shredded. Also the front is damaged, meaning he went over something and the bottom may be pretty bad. Also, getting the door sill straight and the rest of the body work around the door setup right will be hours, and hours of cutting, welding, bending, hammering, etc. Also, the bags popped so the bags and the wiring and controller need to be replaced.

Resale value on these isn't very good so you would be well upside down on this project even if you got it for $6000. Also, you don't know how to do the body work needed here, and it's not easy to learn. Could also have chassis damage that will need a frame shop to sort out and that is usually $$$$$$.

Choose wisely.:yikes:
 
Doc: I really appreciate the time you put into those posts. Points duly noted, for sure.
 
Can it be done, absolutely, is it a good idea, maybe, maybe not. You sound like your friend is pretty experienced in rebuilding, make sure you know what you're getting into. I know several people that do it and drive them for a while and sell them. Kind of like an airplane with damage history, you buy it cheap and you also sell it cheap, or do like some folks and lie about the salvage history.:eek::nono:
One thing to be aware of on newer salvage vehicles is the lack of warranty, I know Ford and I think all manufacturers void the warranty once it's a total loss and or salvage title. :mad2:
It's an opportunity to get more car for your money, but it also has it's own set of challenges and risks. You have to pretty much buy what's available, if she wants a blue one, she may get white or wait 6 months on a blue one. ;)
Just be aware that if a no damage car is worth $25K a rebuilt one is worth $15-20K, probably closer to $15K, so it isn't a free lunch.
As others have pointed out having good access to used parts is a must, buying new parts will kill the savings and potential profit pretty quick.
Personally, I would let her buy what she wants and if you want to buy a wreck and build it for the experience, go for it. :D
 
You're OK with a Corolla but she wouldn't be? Let her buy what SHE can afford. You don't have the money or skill to enter into this adventure. I've been an auto tech for 40 years and I wouldn't buy a crashed car and think I'll come out ahead. Hidden damage, salvage title and unknown mechanicals.
If you're intent on doing this for her, find a clean car with a bad motor or transmission. One weekend and you're done.
I bought a 2007 ION with 240,000 miles and bad engine. The body and interior were super clean. Gave him $450 for the car and put in a 60,000 mile engine for $350. Even with the high mileage it's worth over $5000.
Stay away from luxury cars with a lot of gadgety electronics and toys.
 
If interested, I just purchased a 2007 Civic coupe, 1.8L 5spd, hit in the front. Sell to you for your project car for $2800.00. Clear title, and from the story I was told, likely won't be tagged salvage.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If interested, I just purchased a 2007 Civic coupe, 1.8L 5spd, hit in the front. Sell to you for your project car for $2800.00. Clear title, and from the story I was told, likely won't be tagged salvage.
Click to expand...

PM Sent.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If interested, I just purchased a 2007 Civic coupe, 1.8L 5spd, hit in the front. Sell to you for your project car for $2800.00. Clear title, and from the story I was told, likely won't be tagged salvage.
Click to expand...

Bag situation?
 
asechrest said:
Howdy.

My significant other .......).

My girlfriend, on the other hand, is not so keen on driving a beater. .....
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Post a pic of your GF and we can decide if the journey is worth it...;)..:D..

:needpics:

Ps... ALOT of viable wrecks were crushed during the liberal " cash for clunkers" program....
 
Buy new....enjoy the warranty for a few years...run it into the ground...you will have a beater to fix before you know it.
 
docmirror said:
Bag situation?
Click to expand...
Fortunately, no mothers-in-law were harmed in the transaction

I'd have to double check, but I believe only the drivers wheel bag deployed.

I can post some photos tomorrow.
 
One bag or all, the controller and all crash sensors have to go plus the bag. nasty job on most cars. That's usually the diff between clear and a salvage to most ins. Particularly on low price imports.
 
docmirror said:
One bag or all, the controller and all crash sensors have to go plus the bag. nasty job on most cars. That's usually the diff between clear and a salvage to most ins. Particularly on low price imports.
Click to expand...

Sorry if this is an ignorant question: can you buy an OEM airbag and a replacement airbag control module? Is there more to it than that?
 
asechrest said:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question: can you buy an OEM airbag and a replacement airbag control module? Is there more to it than that?
Click to expand...

I don't want to give bad info, so I'll be vague. Some controllers can be reset with a tool. You can take it out, or get the PN and find an airbag shop that will reset it or tell you it needs to be replaced. There's a lot of variation in airbag systems in gen 2. The bag is the easy part. The sensors are harder, all of them need to be replaced and each car is different. I don't know the location on the Honda, but I think there are two, near the A pillar. The bag is pretty easy, just be careful with the ignition pill wiring, and work with the car battery disconnected.
 
docmirror said:
I don't want to give bad info, so I'll be vague. Some controllers can be reset with a tool. You can take it out, or get the PN and find an airbag shop that will reset it or tell you it needs to be replaced. There's a lot of variation in airbag systems in gen 2. The bag is the easy part. The sensors are harder, all of them need to be replaced and each car is different. I don't know the location on the Honda, but I think there are two, near the A pillar. The bag is pretty easy, just be careful with the ignition pill wiring, and work with the car battery disconnected.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Owe ya' a beer (two?) for your input here. Our SZ spats notwithstanding. :D

As I recall, when my friend acquires a rebuildable with deployed airbag, he'll buy the complete replacement airbag and new control module off of Ebay and install it. I don't know much more than that.
 
asechrest said:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question: can you buy an OEM airbag and a replacement airbag control module? Is there more to it than that?
Click to expand...

I sell airbags and the control computer and the seat belts all the time. They are OEM and perfectly okay.

Now if you want some that have been demonstrated to work before I got the car or truck (aka road tested) I can make you a really good deal.

Lh airbags from th drivers wheel average $100 each, rh from the dash, $175-250 each, roof bags, $150. Air bag computers $75-175.

I am one of the early adopters do the ARA air bag protocol. http://www.a-r-a.org/content.asp?pl=453&sl=526&contentid=543
 
See, I didn't even know there was a protocol in place. I think it came about due to some of the horror stories of crashed cars with non-functional bags. Glad to see it.

Be super careful with the sensors. If you drop it, it's dead. If you bang on it, it's dead.

More I look at that GTI, more I want to grab it up and get to work. That one looks like a good deal right now.
 
docmirror said:
See, I didn't even know there was a protocol in place. I think it came about due to some of the horror stories of crashed cars with non-functional bags. Glad to see it.

Be super careful with the sensors. If you drop it, it's dead. If you bang on it, it's dead.

More I look at that GTI, more I want to grab it up and get to work. That one looks like a good deal right now.
Click to expand...

Did you notice it's only got 11k miles? Nice. Tempting but my SO won't care for it.
 
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