Commercial multi thoughts

[mcmanigle]

I'm playing around with the idea of going for a commercial multi ticket later this summer. There are a couple of decent part 61 options near where I (will) live (when I'm back in the States). My questions are:

1. Should I just take it as a given in this day and age that the "solo" flights will have to be supervised solo? Or is it worth asking around for insurance that would support this? I assume there's no chance of renter's insurance to support this sort of thing...

2. It looks like by the letter of the FARs, what's required for me to do commercial multi ab initio (from PP-ASEL+IR) is:
- 5 hr multi instrument
- 10 hr multi complex
- 2 hr day XC multi
- 2 hr night XC multi
- 3 hr test prep multi
- 10 hr "solo", including long XC and 5 hr night VFR w/ tower work

Combining things maximally, it looks like a minimum legal time would be 20 hours (10 with an instructor, 10 "solo"). Is that a reasonable approximation, or should I be thinking closer to 30-ish? (230 hours, proficient IFR, comfortable bouncing around between the basic trainer types, but little HP and no complex time.)

3. I'm leaning towards starting with CP-AMEL and then adding ASEL mostly so that I have enough multi hours to only be a moderate laughing stock to the insurance agent if I ever try to get insured in multi's. At the moment, I have no immediate plans to fly either multis or commercially with any regularity, I'm just arriving at a year in my life with more free time than I might have in the next several years. I'm open to arguments that just going CP-ASEL and adding AMEL would be so much less expensive and/or that the hours for insurance or proficiency wouldn't make much difference.

Thoughts?

 

[Brad Z]

I'm playing around with the idea of going for a commercial multi ticket later this summer. There are a couple of decent part 61 options near where I (will) live (when I'm back in the States). My questions are:

1. Should I just take it as a given in this day and age that the "solo" flights will have to be supervised solo? Or is it worth asking around for insurance that would support this? I assume there's no chance of renter's insurance to support this sort of thing...

2. It looks like by the letter of the FARs, what's required for me to do commercial multi ab initio (from PP-ASEL+IR) is:
- 5 hr multi instrument
- 10 hr multi complex
- 2 hr day XC multi
- 2 hr night XC multi
- 3 hr test prep multi
- 10 hr "solo", including long XC and 5 hr night VFR w/ tower work

Combining things maximally, it looks like a minimum legal time would be 20 hours (10 with an instructor, 10 "solo"). Is that a reasonable approximation, or should I be thinking closer to 30-ish? (230 hours, proficient IFR, comfortable bouncing around between the basic trainer types, but little HP and no complex time.)

3. I'm leaning towards starting with CP-AMEL and then adding ASEL mostly so that I have enough multi hours to only be a moderate laughing stock to the insurance agent if I ever try to get insured in multi's. At the moment, I have no immediate plans to fly either multis or commercially with any regularity, I'm just arriving at a year in my life with more free time than I might have in the next several years. I'm open to arguments that just going CP-ASEL and adding AMEL would be so much less expensive and/or that the hours for insurance or proficiency wouldn't make much difference.

Thoughts?

Remember that none of that multi time is PIC time prior to the checkride, unless you really are solo.

So if your insurance requirements are for PIC time, you're better off doing the initial commercial in a single, then doing the 7 hours or so of multi to train for the CMEL checkride. You can always train for the MEI if you need to burn dual multi time later (and are motivated enough to become a CFI).

 

[jordane93]

I think it will be easier to do SEL first. If you do MEL first, you'll have to demonstrate the maneuvers along with everything else on the PTS. If you do your SEL first, you'll get the maneuvers out of the way and the MEL checkride will be a lot less stuff to do.

 

[Brad Z]

I think it will be easier to do SEL first. If you do MEL first, you'll have to demonstrate the maneuvers along with everything else on the PTS. If you do your SEL first, you'll get the maneuvers out of the way and the MEL checkride will be a lot less stuff to do.

Not all the manuevers. Things like chandelles, Lazy Eights, eights on pylons are Commercial Single Engine manuevers. Bigger deal is meeting all of the XC and night requirements in a twin.

 

[bobmrg]

Remember that none of that multi time is PIC time prior to the checkride, unless you really are solo.

So if your insurance requirements are for PIC time, you're better off doing the initial commercial in a single, then doing the 7 hours or so of multi to train for the CMEL checkride. You can always train for the MEI if you need to burn dual multi time later (and are motivated enough to become a CFI).

Brad, 61.129(b)(4) was designed for just this situation. An appropriately rated instructor goes along for the ride and the "solo" pilot logs PIC time. The reg was driven by insurance requirements imposed on FBOs. If the CFI opens his or her mouth to give instruction, of course, the whole deal falls through. (I don't think that the FAA has mandated cockpit voice recorders, however.)

This came along many years after you and I became multiengine instructors.

Bob Gardner

 

[dans2992]

I just did exactly what the OP is proposing. I needed 25 hours multi to meet all the requirements.

Did the "solo" with a CFI along for the ride to keep things safe. Was glad to have him.

You'll need to do some XC work, and a lot of night multi flying, so keep that in mind.

Of course it's cheaper to do the single commercial first, but I wanted to build up multi time anyhow as you mention, so I decided to do it this way. Plus, now I can do the single commercial in a non-complex plane if I want.

 

[Brad Z]

Brad, 61.129(b)(4) was designed for just this situation. An appropriately rated instructor goes along for the ride and the "solo" pilot logs PIC time. The reg was driven by insurance requirements imposed on FBOs. If the CFI opens his or her mouth to give instruction, of course, the whole deal falls through. (I don't think that the FAA has mandated cockpit voice recorders, however.)

This came along many years after you and I became multiengine instructors.

Bob Gardner

OK, so according to 61.129(b)(4), "10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section" ...allows that time to count towards the 100 hours of required Pilot-In-Command flight time, which requires:

100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

But...14 CFR 61.51(e) addresses logging of Pilot-In-Command time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B ) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

So from my read, the supervised solo meets the solo requirement for 61.129(b)(4), and counts towards the P-I-C time requirement in 61.129(b)(2), but cannot be logged in the logbook as P-I-C Time, based on the requirement in 61.51(e)(1)(iv)(A).

Let me know if I'm misinterpreting this...

 

[dans2992]

That's my interpretation as well.

 

[mcmanigle]

So from my read, the supervised solo meets the solo requirement for 61.129(b)(4), and counts towards the P-I-C time requirement in 61.129(b)(2), but cannot be logged in the logbook as P-I-C Time, based on the requirement in 61.51(e)(1)(iv)(A).

That's always been my understanding as well... I've also never owned a plane, and my renters' insurance (for SEL) have always just asked total time. Does "big boy" insurance typically care more about PIC time?

 

[gismo]

Thoughts?

I'm thinking you'd be better served going for PP-AMEL first. That way all your training time for CP-AMEL will be loggable as PIC. I'd also recommend you get some complex ASEL time, preferably in something about as fast as a AMEL trainier (i.e. > 150 KTAS) before tackling the AMEL. You could even combine the complex training with CP-ASEL if you see any value in that particular rating. WRT insurance requirements for light twins, an IR plus a reasonable amount of time in a fast complex single counts for a lot, not quite as much as the same hours in a twin but close.

If you jump straight into a twin for CP-AMEL you're likely to be a bit overwhelmed with the combination of high speed, low gear and flap limits, while also trying to get comfortable with two engines on top of perfecting the commercial maneuvers.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm thinking you'd be better served going for PP-AMEL first. That way all your training time for CP-AMEL will be loggable as PIC. I'd also recommend you get some complex ASEL time, preferably in something about as fast as a AMEL trainier (i.e. > 150 KTAS) before tackling the AMEL. You could even combine the complex training with CP-ASEL if you see any value in that particular rating. WRT insurance requirements for light twins, an IR plus a reasonable amount of time in a fast complex single counts for a lot, not quite as much as the same hours in a twin but close.

If you jump straight into a twin for CP-AMEL you're likely to be a bit overwhelmed with the combination of high speed, low gear and flap limits, while also trying to get comfortable with two engines on top of perfecting the commercial maneuvers.

This is exactly what I did. Got my MEL as a PP and built ME time while working toward my Commercial. In my opinion, doing the CP AMEL first is an easier check ride. The SE after that was a breeze. Very short oral and then basically the air work and then back to do the power off 180 in a fixed gear.

 

[LifeInverted]

I'm thinking you'd be better served going for PP-AMEL first. That way all your training time for CP-AMEL will be loggable as PIC. I'd also recommend you get some complex ASEL time, preferably in something about as fast as a AMEL trainier (i.e. > 150 KTAS) before tackling the AMEL. You could even combine the complex training with CP-ASEL if you see any value in that particular rating. WRT insurance requirements for light twins, an IR plus a reasonable amount of time in a fast complex single counts for a lot, not quite as much as the same hours in a twin but close.

If you jump straight into a twin for CP-AMEL you're likely to be a bit overwhelmed with the combination of high speed, low gear and flap limits, while also trying to get comfortable with two engines on top of perfecting the commercial maneuvers.

Nailed it, though I wouldn't worry about using time and money in a complex ASEL. Depending on what light twin you plan on training in there really isn't that much you would benefit from ASEL complex. Most of your light twin trainers are docile enough. Get the complex hours with your AMEL

 

[bobmrg]

OK, so according to 61.129(b)(4), "10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section" ...allows that time to count towards the 100 hours of required Pilot-In-Command flight time, which requires:

100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

But...14 CFR 61.51(e) addresses logging of Pilot-In-Command time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B ) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

So from my read, the supervised solo meets the solo requirement for 61.129(b)(4), and counts towards the P-I-C time requirement in 61.129(b)(2), but cannot be logged in the logbook as P-I-C Time, based on the requirement in 61.51(e)(1)(iv)(A).

Let me know if I'm misinterpreting this...

If it counts toward qualifying for the commercial ticket, which is the intention of the reg, that's good enough for me.

Bob

 

[Brad Z]

If it counts toward qualifying for the commercial ticket, which is the intention of the reg, that's good enough for me.

Bob

Well regardless of whether the supervised solo counts towards total P-I-C time, the dual time most certainly does not, so if one's goal is to log as much multi P-I-C time as possible, it's best to get rated in category and class as cheap as possible. As such, getting a commercial rating added to his PP certificate will do that. Then all of the multi commercial flying will be P-I-C time.