Choosing the plane for Winter mountain trips

[SilencewOw]

I’ve flown in both Cessna and Piper’s and I like both of them, but I’m more of a Piper fan.

I would not fly in IMC in the winter, if there is a thin layer to break through, fine, but you won’t want to be doing approaching with icing conditions. But again if the layer is thin maybe but I would just wait for VFR days and fly then.

I went to Aspen and flew in and out of there with an instructor, wasn’t difficult, it was difficult to see the airport from above yes but I have that issue with any new airport.

How much do you 4 weigh? And are you brining equipment or renting? 4 people airplanes are not generally for 4 people especially if you have luggage.

I was thinking around 900-1000 pounds. But that was when I asked this question a couple days ago, reading most of the comments and understanding the seriousness of the flight and amount of level necessary- who knows how much I’m going to weight in 10 years)

 

[SilencewOw]

If you own a plane, some years, the weather and maintenance issues will conspire to keep you from flying when you had big plans. But that is what back up refundable airline tickets are for. Is it really practical to make a last minute spontaneous ski trip to aspen? Or is it one of those things you have to plan way out in advance?

I was actually thinking spontaneous. To make it easy and quick without any schedules. In my head it was like:
Wow there is (or was) a lot of snow in mammooth (or Utah) this week, I take Friday off, jump on the plane in the morning, arrive around noon-1pm, enjoy the ride for half of Friday and the whole Saturday and leave Sunday.

To plan everything ahead is what schedule flights are

But that was my dream, I understand that it is barely possible so..

 

[SilencewOw]

Here you go.. I live in and fly around the Southern California area for the last 10+ years

-Centurion, get one with ice protection
--pros: very stable, honestly flies like a big heavy 172. The biggest learning curve will be learning to slow it down in your descents and getting used to the heavy pitch control forces. Decently fast, I know this is sacrilege but it is faster and more comfortable than a bonanza. That is just facts

--cons: it's a single engine piston. You can probably get four people in it and find room for skis but I wouldn't depend on it as an all-weather airplane. A nice one can still be close to half a million dollars.

-Aztec, got one with ice protection
--pros, big six comfortable seats, plenty of luggage both in a forward and aft compartment, dirt cheap price of entry. As respectable speeds at least 150 knots. I typically see closer to 165 true. You have two engines so you have a layer of redundancy and more time for options over inhospitable terrain. The wings are fat and forgiving. You have crazy useful load typically around 2,000 lb or just under depending on options

--cons: be prepared to spend triple the maintenance as you would on a single. While the Aztec is a big friendly happy dopey Cherokee you will still need to be proficient flying multi


Either that or a 182. I continue to be unimpressed by the bonanza's overall comfort and take off and climb performance with any kind of elevation.

I saw above a few mentions around the bigger six place Piper singles, unless you're looking at an older Cherokee 6, lance, or some saratoga's, I would skip the more higher performance ones. They have crappy useful load and it's a more niche product that will be frustrating to maintain. The Lance is my favorite and most rugged of the big Piper singles.

Thank you!

 

[Half Fast]

But that was my dream, I understand that it is barely possible so..

Well, almost everything is po$$ible....

 

[rockwoodrv9a]

Our company is based in Santa Barbara. We rebuilt the Snowmass Ski Area and the RLN in Aspen. We flew almost weekly for 5 years from SB to ASE in a Citation. Many if not most trips in the winter were delayed or moved up because of weather. Sometimes for days. Many times we flew commercial and had to drive from Denver or Eagle.

The airport is mostly a one way in and exit the same way. You can circle and come in from the south but it is not the easiest. The better option is Rifle. (RIL) It is quite a bit cheaper to park and much easier to get in and out of. The de-ice is about 1/2 the ASE cost.

I have just over 300 hours in my RV 9 now and thinking about getting my instrument rating. Only for going through the never ending clouds here in MI. I would not fly into ASE without an IR.

Have fun getting your ticket and getting the experience so you can live out your dreams. You said you had a budget so use some of that to get a plane you can learn in and build up the hours at a reasonable cost. A trainer is easy to buy and sell. As you get experience you will know what plane you want to end up with and where you want to fly it.

 

[TCABM]

…But that was my dream, I understand that it is barely possible so..

It’s possible assuming you accept the risks and limitations. But make no bones about it, one bad call will kill you dead. Got time to spare? Go by air.

GA travel is essentially about being able to flex your schedule to the present conditions and being able to accept being stranded away from home if there’s a maintenance issue.

 

[dans2992]

Our company is based in Santa Barbara. We rebuilt the Snowmass Ski Area and the RLN in Aspen. We flew almost weekly for 5 years from SB to ASE in a Citation. Many if not most trips in the winter were delayed or moved up because of weather. Sometimes for days. Many times we flew commercial and had to drive from Denver or Eagle.

The airport is mostly a one way in and exit the same way. You can circle and come in from the south but it is not the easiest. The better option is Rifle. (RIL) It is quite a bit cheaper to park and much easier to get in and out of. The de-ice is about 1/2 the ASE cost.

I have just over 300 hours in my RV 9 now and thinking about getting my instrument rating. Only for going through the never ending clouds here in MI. I would not fly into ASE without an IR.

Have fun getting your ticket and getting the experience so you can live out your dreams. You said you had a budget so use some of that to get a plane you can learn in and build up the hours at a reasonable cost. A trainer is easy to buy and sell. As you get experience you will know what plane you want to end up with and where you want to fly it.

Curious - what does an airliner have that a Citation doesn’t in terms of capability that would prevent the trip in a Citation?

 

[sourdough44]

Yeah, a big jump from starting pilot training to Winter mountain ops. Get one thinking anyway.

 

[dcr-wss]

Useful load on a Malibu is only about 1250lbs. With 1000lbs on board you have enough space left for your reserve fuel, but you can't take off. And look at the engine failure data on these before you decide to fly your family over the sierras in one.

You pushed back early on regarding why this would be expensive, but I think you're getting it now. You've outlined a mission that is challenging in GA. Adjust your mission or adjust your budget. Some people in here might not suggest it, but I know pilots who perform this mission in TBMs. But if your budget is $300k discussing between TBM and Citation doesn't really matter. My mission is to fly between north and south CA, occasionally into OR/AZ/WA in good conditions. This is an easy mission for piston "legacy fleet" GA. When I visit friends in Utah I fly commercial.

 

[farangutan]

I was actually thinking spontaneous. To make it easy and quick without any schedules. In my head it was like:
Wow there is (or was) a lot of snow in mammooth (or Utah) this week, I take Friday off, jump on the plane in the morning, arrive around noon-1pm, enjoy the ride for half of Friday and the whole Saturday and leave Sunday.

To plan everything ahead is what schedule flights are

But that was my dream, I understand that it is barely possible so..

No sorry, I was asking from ignorance about skiing in aspen and skiing in general. I have no idea if those places are like Disney where it seems like unlimited visitors or if the slopes are very restrictive. Flying is an adventure and many pilots fly our little barely capable planes all over the place. A lot of people, myself included, have had to cancel or be more realistic in the capabilities of the plane and pilot for long trips. Don't be too discouraged. You must be flexible and not worry about trouble at work because your aspen trip had to be extended until better weather conditions. Your passengers too. You have to develop the ability to tell people no, this flight can't be flown. Doesn't matter if it's because weather, plane, pilot proficiency. If you have those and other pressures, then you greatly increase the chance to become the next accident statistic.

 

[mandm]

I was thinking around 900-1000 pounds. But that was when I asked this question a couple days ago, reading most of the comments and understanding the seriousness of the flight and amount of level necessary- who knows how much I’m going to weight in 10 years)

You might want to look at a Cessna 182, those are good cross country machines with a decent useful load and speed. It is practical for you to move into a 182 easily as well. I don’t know the useful load off hand, but if you are saying 900-1000 lbs of people/baggage, plus fuel, you might need to make it a group of 3 guys and reduce a bit of weight.

In aviation you really need to start slow, you can get your PPL easily in under a month, but to fly IFR in actual IMC conditions in my opinion takes several years of flying experience to do this safely. I’ve flown to Miami, Alaska, NYC all from Chicago, mostly in good weather, but the few times I had some weather got a little scary quick and from those experiences I set my own personal limitations that are far above (or more restrictive) what you can legally do. Took me years to figure this out too. By the time you get your ratings and go through the airplane buying experience, you and your buddies might have a different mission. Also when flying with your friends and the weather changes for the worse, you are pressured into flying to get your buddies back to their wives, children, jobs, etc. Have you ever had to tell them hey you’re stuck here until the weather clears? I’ve had friends wait on me for 4-5 days before and had to rebook commercial flights before too because of my decision to not fly. One time a friend’s Mom told me they wanted to fly with us but had to be back before dinner on a day trip to KSSI and I said no because I don’t want to be pressured into flying back if the weather changes or the airplane has an issue. Not just the weather but also the pilot needs to be 100%, not sick, fully with it and ready to fly the airplane.

You can charter a PC12 with a single pilot and sit up front in the right seat, and after you get bored of not chilling with your buddies you can go in the back and have a drink. Might be more fun, cheaper and safer like others suggested.

If you love flying and want to take your airplane out by yourself for the $100 hamburgers, change her oil and polish her up yourself, practice weekly, then it might be a good thing for you. Airplanes that sit begin to have maintenance issues, they need TLC.

Once you have your airplane for a couple years, you’ll learn a LOT, like how she runs, maintenance, and if you actually use her. And if YES then I would consider upgrading at that time. I’m on my third insurance year for my Arrow and been a pilot since 2020, I have a more basic Arrow with a 6 pack, she runs well, I’ve had things fixed and still things to fix, but we are now talking about something faster, but I am not even close to thinking about icing. I want better avionics and to start flying more IMC but that’s going to be another process where I have to learn to set my limitations on cloud layers, bases and tops, at departure en route and destination as well.

 

[rockwoodrv9a]

Curious - what does an airliner have that a Citation doesn’t in terms of capability that would prevent the trip in a Citation?

Probably not much other than size but I dont know. Our pilot knew the airplane and airport well and was the one that said go or not. It was pretty freaky going into ASE even commercial. Thinking about it now, Im sure our pilot had more hours in the Citation than some of the airline pilots.

 

[kaiser]

Curious - what does an airliner have that a Citation doesn’t in terms of capability that would prevent the trip in a Citation?

Some airlines have access to special secret procedures that gives them different minima (I’m assuming RNP of some sort). Requires special approval and training just to get it into their DB and get access to charts IIRC.

 

[Steamflyer]

Hello guys. I’ve read several threads at this forum so decided to register and ask advice for myself. That’s regarding the future plane pick.

My name is Mike, I’m from Southern California. I’m only about to start my PPL, but I was thinking before the start - to identify the airplane I will aim after getting my PPL and instrument rating. If I know it will be some Piper - I will go and start learning on Piper, if that will be Cessna then I will study on Cessna. First of all does this logic even make any sense or even if I will aim to get some Piper after getting the license studying on Cessna is absolutely not a problem?

The hardest task I want to be able to accomplish with my future airplane- is to be able to get 4 people including myself for a ski trips to Utah and Colorado.

Based on what I expect it will be approximately 900-1000lb of weight and the distance from the airport I’m planning to base (Long Beach Airport (LGB)) to Salt Lake City 511Nm and to Aspen is 635nm
I read at this forum that Aspen is a very tricky airport to land and I will consider any reasonable alternative to keep the safety as a number one priority. Couldn’t find any info on how difficult Salt Lake City is.

I’m planning to share the plane with my friend and we have a budget around $300k. If that’s not enough to get something safe for the above mentioned task we will save more

Any advices or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Will bite. Background is 40 years of experience as well as doing most of the mission you desire from CA to UT (not CO) many times in several aircraft.

1) I'd learn in a high-wing Cessna. It will teach you more about wind and x-winds than a low wing Cherokee.
2) If the weight you want to transport is real, you will need a turbocharged twin or a SETP. Your budget does not support the latter. The twin will be cheaper but more maintenance intensive, but your budget will permit it. Have made similar trips many times in a light turbocharged de-iced twin. In CAVU and IMC. It will do the job with some boundary conditions around weather, but the storms in the Sierras and Rockies are such that nothing flies at their peak anyhow.
3) You are a fairly long way away from being able to do this. You'll need to spend some time in a turbocharged single flying IFR in decent IMC. A/B36TC (or TN), Turbo SR22, or Turbo 182 would be the best mounts for a SoCal pilot going from sea level to high altitudes quickly. MEAs in NorCal and SoCal are often 7-9k, so a turbo is essential IMHO.
4) You'll want to find a mentor pilot with non-SoCal only experience. The wx in SoCal is too good, even peripheral to a storm, which often passes through very quickly anyhow.
5) Aspen requires strict adherence to procedures - when you do your IFR training and/or mentoring, try and find a CFII who is either a 135 or 121 pilot who happens to instruct. Former can be ok as well. Those instructors really know the system and have traveled further and through more weather. Found that was not the case with many of the club instructors, who might have been great otherwise but don't have the experience you need to learn.

 

[TCABM]

Curious - what does an airliner have that a Citation doesn’t in terms of capability that would prevent the trip in a Citation?

ASE is a challenging airport. It sits at 7600 ft and is surround by 14K mountains. Rifle offers much less risk and more options to get in and out, as does Eagle.

It’s not unusual for the airlines to divert to EGE in the winter.

 

[Pinecone]

If you are talking about 1000 pounds of people and luggage, not including fuel, you are into serious twin and SETP.

As for what you train in, at the level you are moving towards, it doesn't make any difference. It would make a SMALL amount of difference if you were looking at a more typical 150 - 300 HP piston single.

 

[Rockymountain]

An acquaintance of mine shredded his FIKI Cirrus over Sugarbowl Mountain trying to do that several years ago. Didn't work out too well for him. At least they said he died quickly.

Was that the 2005 Cirrus accident? If so, there were no FIKI Cirri in 2005. FIKI In cirrus was first introduced in 2009. I think it may have had a no-hazard deice system, which is not a certified system and not legal to fly in icing conditions.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Was that the 2005 Cirrus accident? If so, there were no FIKI Cirri in 2005. FIKI In cirrus was first introduced in 2009. I think it may have had a no-hazard deice system, which is not a certified system and not legal to fly in icing conditions.

That was the one yes.

 

[dans2992]

Was that the 2005 Cirrus accident? If so, there were no FIKI Cirri in 2005. FIKI In cirrus was first introduced in 2009. I think it may have had a no-hazard deice system, which is not a certified system and not legal to fly in icing conditions.

Not certified, but I think the practical differences are redundancy and paperwork, not necessarily ability to actually remove ice.

 

[SilencewOw]

Our company is based in Santa Barbara. We rebuilt the Snowmass Ski Area and the RLN in Aspen. We flew almost weekly for 5 years from SB to ASE in a Citation. Many if not most trips in the winter were delayed or moved up because of weather. Sometimes for days. Many times we flew commercial and had to drive from Denver or Eagle.

The airport is mostly a one way in and exit the same way. You can circle and come in from the south but it is not the easiest. The better option is Rifle. (RIL) It is quite a bit cheaper to park and much easier to get in and out of. The de-ice is about 1/2 the ASE cost.

I have just over 300 hours in my RV 9 now and thinking about getting my instrument rating. Only for going through the never ending clouds here in MI. I would not fly into ASE without an IR.

Have fun getting your ticket and getting the experience so you can live out your dreams. You said you had a budget so use some of that to get a plane you can learn in and build up the hours at a reasonable cost. A trainer is easy to buy and sell. As you get experience you will know what plane you want to end up with and where you want to fly it.

Thanks!!

 

[SilencewOw]

Useful load on a Malibu is only about 1250lbs. With 1000lbs on board you have enough space left for your reserve fuel, but you can't take off.

if I have 250 extra lbs why can’t I take off?

 

[SilencewOw]

Will bite. Background is 40 years of experience as well as doing most of the mission you desire from CA to UT (not CO) many times in several aircraft.

1) I'd learn in a high-wing Cessna. It will teach you more about wind and x-winds than a low wing Cherokee.
2) If the weight you want to transport is real, you will need a turbocharged twin or a SETP. Your budget does not support the latter. The twin will be cheaper but more maintenance intensive, but your budget will permit it. Have made similar trips many times in a light turbocharged de-iced twin. In CAVU and IMC. It will do the job with some boundary conditions around weather, but the storms in the Sierras and Rockies are such that nothing flies at their peak anyhow.
3) You are a fairly long way away from being able to do this. You'll need to spend some time in a turbocharged single flying IFR in decent IMC. A/B36TC (or TN), Turbo SR22, or Turbo 182 would be the best mounts for a SoCal pilot going from sea level to high altitudes quickly. MEAs in NorCal and SoCal are often 7-9k, so a turbo is essential IMHO.
4) You'll want to find a mentor pilot with non-SoCal only experience. The wx in SoCal is too good, even peripheral to a storm, which often passes through very quickly anyhow.
5) Aspen requires strict adherence to procedures - when you do your IFR training and/or mentoring, try and find a CFII who is either a 135 or 121 pilot who happens to instruct. Former can be ok as well. Those instructors really know the system and have traveled further and through more weather. Found that was not the case with many of the club instructors, who might have been great otherwise but don't have the experience you need to learn.

could you please tell me what is MEA?
Can you be my mentor?)

 

[robin ardoin]

if I have 250 extra lbs why can’t I take off?

Research fuel requirements for IFR flight.

edit- I see above that you are asking “what is MEA?”. You’ve got waaaay too much to learn before considering a particular aircraft to make your hypothetical trip.

 

[Pinecone]

if I have 250 extra lbs why can’t I take off?

Because you need fuel.

People keep trying to change the laws of physics, but engines don't run without fuel.

Aviation gasoline is 6 pounds be gallon. Jet fuel is around 7. So 250 pounds is only 35 gallons. A small piston plane burns 10 - 20 gallons per hour.

 

[Nick Geber]

Please let me know what is the entry level planes for this type of task, so I could take a look and understand amount of money needed. I was looking into p210n. Why won’t it handle the task?
there are a lot of them around $300k.

Malibu from 80s is a little more expensive but possible to buy before getting to 400ss
Please let me know what am I missing.

Thanks

Respectfully, you’re a long way away from safely flying in and out of high altitude, challenging airports. Factor in weather, IMC, winds and you’re looking at a challenging mission for any pilot let alone A pilot who is still a student pilot. It will probably take you a few hundred hours until you’re truly comfortable flying any plane and you will 100% need to get your IFR rating - somy opinion is that you get a good trainer to start so you can log a lot of hours And get your IFR ticket which is a lot more challenging than people think. After that, you’ll have a much better idea of what you want for your long term airplane.

 

[SilencewOw]

Respectfully, you’re a long way away from safely flying in and out of high altitude, challenging airports. Factor in weather, IMC, winds and you’re looking at a challenging mission for any pilot let alone A pilot who is still a student pilot. It will probably take you a few hundred hours until you’re truly comfortable flying any plane and you will 100% need to get your IFR rating - somy opinion is that you get a good trainer to start so you can log a lot of hours And get your IFR ticket which is a lot more challenging than people think. After that, you’ll have a much better idea of what you want for your long term airplane.

That’s the plan, thank you!

 

[SilencewOw]

Because you need fuel.

People keep trying to change the laws of physics, but engines don't run without fuel.

Aviation gasoline is 6 pounds be gallon. Jet fuel is around 7. So 250 pounds is only 35 gallons. A small piston plane burns 10 - 20 gallons per hour.

My bad I was under the impression that 1250lb is a payload with the full tanks. With full tanks it is only 350lbs..

 

[SilencewOw]

Research fuel requirements for IFR flight.

edit- I see above that you are asking “what is MEA?”. You’ve got waaaay too much to learn before considering a particular aircraft to make your hypothetical trip.

I never said that I want to be able to do it tomorrow I said that’s my ultimate goal, don’t see any problem having a long term goal unfortunately you didn’t answered what is MEA though(

 

[Pinecone]

My bad I was under the impression that 1250lb is a payload with the full tanks. With full tanks it is only 350lbs..

One of your first lessons on weight and balance.

Virtually no GA aircraft can fill the seats and the tanks. It allows you flexibility.

 

[Pinecone]

I never said that I want to be able to do it tomorrow I said that’s my ultimate goal, don’t see any problem having a long term goal unfortunately you didn’t answered what is MEA though(

MEA = Minimum Enroute Altitude.

Keeps you from hitting the rocks inside the clouds.

 

[dcr-wss]

My bad I was under the impression that 1250lb is a payload with the full tanks. With full tanks it is only 350lbs..

You and your passenger will have to stay quite svelte to squeeze through the front seat birthing canal of a PA46 anyway so it's not as bad as it sounds.

But really, picking a GA plane for a mission is one of those "least bad option" exercises. You'll have plenty of time to obsess over spec sheets.

 

[dans2992]

Nah, I have a PA46… you can be a bit larger than FAA standard person and still have no issues.

 

[Nick Geber]

just to indulge you…your best mix of performance, physical space and load is an early model Saratoga Turbo PA32R-301T. The early ones had a decent useful load whereas the later ones had a lot less due to all the “luxury” features that are now old and outdated lol. Turbo will get you in and out of high DA.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The thing about skiing is you want to get there before the snow does. You do not want to arrive GA during a snowstorm, and if you get there after the weather clears, the powder will be all skied out.

Aspen is a long haul from CA. Long trips are inherently more challenging because you encounter more weather patterns. That trip would be especially challenging because you would have to cross several mountain ranges and a lot of forboding terrain.

Maybe short trips to some Cali resorts would be more viable. Weather patterns generally move west to east, so you could wait til the weather clears and be on the slopes in a few hours to catch the second half of a bluebird powder day. That could be viable with a moderately priced airplane and low time IFR or even possibly VFR if you choose your days wisely and have the flexibility to get stuck.

 

[Half Fast]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just ski the way God intended?

 

[SilencewOw]

The thing about skiing is you want to get there before the snow does. You do not want to arrive GA during a snowstorm, and if you get there after the weather clears, the powder will be all skied out.

Aspen is a long haul from CA. Long trips are inherently more challenging because you encounter more weather patterns. That trip would be especially challenging because you would have to cross several mountain ranges and a lot of forboding terrain.

Maybe short trips to some Cali resorts would be more viable. Weather patterns generally move west to east, so you could wait til the weather clears and be on the slopes in a few hours to catch the second half of a bluebird powder day. That could be viable with a moderately priced airplane and low time IFR or even possibly VFR if you choose your days wisely and have the flexibility to get stuck.

Is Salt Lake City a much easier comparing to Aspen?

Regarding Cali resorts, yes, Mamooth Lakes and Lake Tahoe are my back up =) to keep my dream at least a little feasible=)

 

[SilencewOw]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just ski the way God intended?

View attachment 125889

haha

 

[Ed Haywood]

Is Salt Lake City a much easier comparing to Aspen?

Regarding Cali resorts, yes, Mamooth Lakes and Lake Tahoe are my back up =) to keep my dream at least a little feasible=)

SLC is at 4,000 feet with flat terrain on 3 sides. Aspen is at 8,000 feet with high mountains on 3.5 sides. So yes, SLC is considerably easier. Never flown out there, but the route from LA to SLC looks like mostly desert once you clear the mountains immediately west of LA. I'm sure someone on here has made that flight a zillion times and can comment in great detail on terrain and weather, but it does not look like a particularly challenging trip under favorable weather conditions. 690 miles is within the capability of many GA aircraft in your budget. Call it ballpark 4 hours with a fuel stop.

It is my understanding that most of the snow in the Utah resorts comes off the Great Salt Lake, so you might even be able to fly in with clear weather and drive into the snow zone. Again, I'm sure someone on here has firsthand knowledge.

But yeah, drop the Aspen fantasy and start talking Cali and SLC and it becomes a reachable goal, IMO.

 

[Randomskylane]

Are you tied to multiple ski resorts? If it were one area (park city for example) you could leave your gear there and not transport back and forth. No bag flying (just computer/phone/toothbrush for example) gives you hundreds of pounds of fuel.