Commercial Confusion

dbahn said:
That's it. People will often cite the regulation in the notes, which I think can be helpful when an examiner is reviewing the logs (particulary if the entry was made by the CFI) but it's not necessary.
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Making it as easy as possible for the DPE to confirm compliance is always a good idea. One method is to print a list of each requirement and the date on which it was documented in the logbook. I'd think most examiners would check one or two of them then move on.
 
My CFI for commercial was a new CFI. Pro: the maneuvers and oral exam prep required were fresh in memory and she did a good job teaching me those. Con: I was her first commercial student and she missed a couple endorsements for the checkride. My DPE, thankfully, was patient enough to wait for her to write and send my endorsements. It pays to show up early for checkrides because you never know!
 
Ok so at my flight school, pretty much everyone is a student pilot and only a few are in for instrument training.

Practically no one is in commercial.

It makes me wish I went to an accelerated school due to these issues.

None of my TAA flights were logged as TAA.

Only 6.4 of my Instrument hours are actually logged as "partial panel/unusual attitude" as someone suggested is required to be logged.

I just don't want to pay for hours that I've already done.
 
ImABird said:
Ok so at my flight school, pretty much everyone is a student pilot and only a few are in for instrument training.

Practically no one is in commercial.

It makes me wish I went to an accelerated school due to these issues.

None of my TAA flights were logged as TAA.

Only 6.4 of my Instrument hours are actually logged as "partial panel/unusual attitude" as someone suggested is required to be logged.

I just don't want to pay for hours that I've already done.
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You don't need 10 hours of partial panel/unusual attitude. The 10 hours must INCLUDE those things.
 
Did you read my previous posts about logging the requirements specified in part 61?

ImABird said:
None of my TAA flights were logged as TAA.
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You can add additional detail to your log entries at any time as long as those details are accurate. There are a number of ways to indicate that an airplane is a TAA. You can note it in the remarks or create a TAA column to log the required TAA time. As long as it is accurate and reliably document the requirements of part 61, the entry will meet the requirements of 61.51(a).

Only 6.4 of my Instrument hours are actually logged as "partial panel/unusual attitude" as someone suggested is required to be logged.
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You are still reading things into the regulation that aren't there. Those are just two items that must be included in the 10 hours of instrument instruction. It sounds like they are already logged so that requirement is met.

I would recommend spending some time with your CFI on how to parse the requirements in the regulation. That will help you with this as well as improve your skills in interpreting any regulation.
 
Larry in TN said:
Did you read my previous posts about logging the requirements specified in part 61?


You can add additional detail to your log entries at any time as long as those details are accurate. There are a number of ways to indicate that an airplane is a TAA. You can note it in the remarks or create a TAA column to log the required TAA time. As long as it is accurate and reliably document the requirements of part 61, the entry will meet the requirements of 61.51(a).


You are still reading things into the regulation that aren't there. Those are just two items that must be included in the 10 hours of instrument instruction. It sounds like they are already logged so that requirement is met.

I would recommend spending some time with your CFI on how to parse the requirements in the regulation. That will help you with this as well as improve your skills in interpreting any regulation.
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Im reading into it because I want to he as precise as possible.

As clear as the FAA thinks they are when writing the regs, they most certainly are far from making it clear.

This is why the best way for me to understand is if someone describes their experience and what they did, for example, "after instrument rating. I flew x amount of hours to meet this commercial requirements in x plane, then flew x amount of hours to satisfy x requirement, and in total flew x amount of hours in x airplane just before the checkride"

In this method, I can see a clearer roadmap.

Im trying to be as efficient as possible. I've already wasted so much money in the past or because instructors didn't clarify or didn't want to, I want to be efficient with this
 
ImABird said:
Im reading into it because I want to he as precise as possible.

As clear as the FAA thinks they are when writing the regs, they most certainly are far from making it clear.

This is why the best way for me to understand is if someone describes their experience and what they did, for example, "after instrument rating. I flew x amount of hours to meet this commercial requirements in x plane, then flew x amount of hours to satisfy x requirement, and in total flew x amount of hours in x airplane just before the checkride"

In this method, I can see a clearer roadmap.

Im trying to be as efficient as possible. I've already wasted so much money in the past or because instructors didn't clarify or didn't want to, I want to be efficient with this
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They are clear. Don't mix and match what's written.

You need 20 hours of training.
10 needs to be instument unless you previously had it. It does NOT need to be in TAA.
10 needs to be TAA. It does not need to be instrument in the TAA
You need training cross countries, it does not need to be TAA.

Quit making venn diagrams with the subsections.

My commercial training experience:
10+ hours instrument in a non TAA/complex.
10 hours in a TAA/complex - no instrument at all.
Cross countries in a non-TAA/complex.
 
ImABird said:
As clear as the FAA thinks they are when writing the regs, they most certainly are far from making it clear.
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In some cases that may be true, but in most cases it's the reader not reading it clearly.
 
Oh my gawd….

I did my PP 61, easy enough.
My IR and CP 141. I did not worry about any of this crap.
ATP came with the territory. FAA audited logbook for written sign off.

Times were easier. I have a CFI (expired), but somehow things were much less complex back then. I would never want to weave the regs as they are. Sooo glad I’m not a CFI today.
 
ImABird said:
None of my TAA flights were logged as TAA.
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I bet they were. You filled out the column for the aircraft registration number, no? Is the airplane with that N-Number a TAA?

But I guess if one continually searches for problem, they will find them whether they exist or not. I think you have a bad case of Regulitis. Hopefully not Reglexia which might be disqualifying for a 2nd class medical.

Regaphobia. A self-fulfilling, irrational fear of reading regulations based on a belief they are incomprehensible. The sufferer simply avoids even trying.​
​
Regulitis. Psychological conditon which causes people of average or better intelligence to lose basic reading comprehension skills when looking at regulations. It is sometimes associated with the FAA-Anon movement whose followers believe all FARs have hidden meanings.​
​
Fortunately, regulitis is a psychological condition as opposed to the more serious Reglexia, which is a neurological condition.​
​
 
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ImABird said:
Im reading into it because I want to he as precise as possible.

As clear as the FAA thinks they are when writing the regs, they most certainly are far from making it clear.

This is why the best way for me to understand is if someone describes their experience and what they did, for example, "after instrument rating. I flew x amount of hours to meet this commercial requirements in x plane, then flew x amount of hours to satisfy x requirement, and in total flew x amount of hours in x airplane just before the checkride"

In this method, I can see a clearer roadmap.

Im trying to be as efficient as possible. I've already wasted so much money in the past or because instructors didn't clarify or didn't want to, I want to be efficient with this
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You keep coming back to instructors not doing their job. Based on your unwillingness/inability to accept the answers you’re given here, and your unwillingness to read the regs without adding into them, I’d suspect it’s not really an instructor problem.

The regs may not be clear to you, but they say what they mean. Don’t put words into them and then complain that they don’t make sense. Read what they say, using the words that they use.
 
ImABird said:
Im reading into it because I want to he as precise as possible.

As clear as the FAA thinks they are when writing the regs, they most certainly are far from making it clear.

This is why the best way for me to understand is if someone describes their experience and what they did, for example, "after instrument rating. I flew x amount of hours to meet this commercial requirements in x plane, then flew x amount of hours to satisfy x requirement, and in total flew x amount of hours in x airplane just before the checkride"

In this method, I can see a clearer roadmap.

Im trying to be as efficient as possible. I've already wasted so much money in the past or because instructors didn't clarify or didn't want to, I want to be efficient with this
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To be as precise as possible, you should precisely read precisely the regulation. Reading other things into or out of the regulation is an imprecise reading. Understanding the regulation by asking for examples instead of reading the regulation is an imprecise reading, particularly when you're asking for examples from a group who generally did not meet the regulation through precisely the minimum requirements. It's like asking the gray-haired day drinkers in a biker bar to explain how they met the age requirement to drink there and then concluding that local law requires people to be over 50 and throw a mean right hook to enter a bar.
 
For example; I've met the 300nm cross country requirement. Several times. One time, to visit Dad with my son, ~800nm away.
With one stop because Josh didn't pee before we left, one stop at my planned fuel stop, and a stop at the destination. So, there's the 300nm requirement, with 3 landings at different airports along the way, with one being more than 250nm from point of departure. Meets the requirement in that part. A subsequent trip to Dads house meets the requirement for the Day 2hr cross country, Or I can use a trip to my sisters house in south GA. I've logged more than ten hours of night VFR, so I can knock out the 10 night landings with an operating control tower in about two hours (full stop, taxi back). I need the 10 hours instrument, and ten hours complex/taa/turbine. And the 3 hours prep. According to the logs, I meet all the other requirements.
 
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bluerooster said:
I've met the 300nm cross country requirement. Several times. One time, to visit Dad with my son, ~800nm away.
With one stop because Josh didn't pee before we left, one stop at my planned fuel stop, and a stop at the destination. So, there's the 300nm requirement, with 3 landings at different airports along the way, with one being more than 250nm from point of departure.
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It sounds like your son was a living human at the time, making this not a solo flight. It doesn’t count toward that requirement.

bluerooster said:
A subsequent trip to Dads house meets the requirement for the Day 2hr cross country, Or I can use a trip to my sisters house in south GA.
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Did your CFI enjoy those trips enough to sign them off as dual?
 
bluerooster said:
For example; I've met the 300nm cross country requirement. Several times. One time, to visit Dad with my son, ~800nm away.
With one stop because Josh didn't pee before we left, one stop at my planned fuel stop, and a stop at the destination. So, there's the 300nm requirement, with 3 landings at different airports along the way, with one being more than 250nm from point of departure. Meets the requirement in that part. A subsequent trip to Dads house meets the requirement for the Day 2hr cross country, Or I can use a trip to my sisters house in south GA. I've logged more than ten hours of night VFR, so I can knock out the 10 night landings with an operating control tower in about two hours (full stop, taxi back). I need the 10 hours instrument, and ten hours complex/taa/turbine. And the 3 hours prep. According to the logs, I meet all the other requirements.
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Like @iamtheari , I don't see evidence in your post that you meet ANY of the requirements.

You need to read up on which requirements need to be solo and which are instructional and therefore need a CFI along.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I bet they were. You filled out the column for the aircraft registration number, no? Is the airplane with that N-Number a TAA?

But I guess if one continually searches for problem, they will find them whether they exist or not. I think you have a bad case of Regulitis. Hopefully not Reglexia which might be disqualifying for a 2nd class medical.

Regaphobia. A self-fulfilling, irrational fear of reading regulations based on a belief they are incomprehensible. The sufferer simply avoids even trying.​
​
Regulitis. Psychological conditon which causes people of average or better intelligence to lose basic reading comprehension skills when looking at regulations. It is sometimes associated with the FAA-Anon movement whose followers believe all FARs have hidden meanings.​
​
Fortunately, regulitis is a psychological condition as opposed to the more serious Reglexia, which is a neurological condition.​
​
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Regulitis absolutely defines me person perfectly
 
OK I concede to the two 2 hour cross country flights should be conducted as training with an instructor.
However;
14CFR 61.129

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under § 61.127(b)(1) that include—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
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Where does it state that there needs to be an instructor on board for the long cross country flight?
There is no definition of "solo" in the 61.1.1, but I'll concede that it can be construed as being the sole occupant, rather than PIC being sole manipulator of the controls. Still, I've logged several many over 300nm cross country flights that do meet the solo requirement, including landings at 3 points with one being a minimum of 250nm from point of departure. The example given with my son on board being but one. So, I believe I still meet that requirement.
 
bluerooster said:
There is no definition of "solo" in the 61.1.1,
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But it’s very clearly defined in 61.51,
“(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.”

And since 61.129 says you must log the experience requirements, there’s really no other way to do it.
 
bluerooster said:
OK I concede to the two 2 hour cross country flights should be conducted as training with an instructor.
However;

Where does it state that there needs to be an instructor on board for the long cross country flight?
There is no definition of "solo" in the 61.1.1, but I'll concede that it can be construed as being the sole occupant, rather than PIC being sole manipulator of the controls. Still, I've logged several many over 300nm cross country flights that do meet the solo requirement, including landings at 3 points with one being a minimum of 250nm from point of departure. The example given with my son on board being but one. So, I believe I still meet that requirement.
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Apparently that flight with your son doesn't count

But just count it anyway.

It's not like this can be checked. And to redo a 300nm flight which let's be honest for most people means 600nm, is brutal.

Why would they want you to fly 300nm solo for commercial when your supposed to carry passengers and get used to it? Weird
 
bluerooster said:
Where does it state that there needs to be an instructor on board for the long cross country flight?
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It doesn’t say that. But it does say it must be solo. It’s very clear.
 
ImABird said:
Apparently that flight with your son doesn't count

But just count it anyway.

It's not like this can be checked. And to redo a 300nm flight which let's be honest for most people means 600nm, is brutal.

Why would they want you to fly 300nm solo for commercial when your supposed to carry passengers and get used to it? Weird
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I hope your confusion continues and you never get your commercial pilot license. At least not until you correct your respect for the rules. Your flippant attitude toward the regulations will get people killed and I don’t think that they should pay you for the privilege.
 
ImABird said:
Apparently that flight with your son doesn't count

But just count it anyway.

It's not like this can be checked. And to redo a 300nm flight which let's be honest for most people means 600nm, is brutal.

Why would they want you to fly 300nm solo for commercial when your supposed to carry passengers and get used to it? Weird
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Cool. The recommendation to lie about meeting regulatory requirements (a federal criminal offense too) puts all your other questions in their proper context.
 
bluerooster said:
Where does it state that there needs to be an instructor on board for the long cross country flight?
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Nobody said there was. There isn’t.

Having an instructor on board for the commercial solo is an option for the commercial solo cross country. It was originally added for the multi solo because of the refusal of insurance companies to insure solos by non-rated pilots in multis. Practically speaking you just couldn’t do it solo. It was later expanded to cover other commercial ratings. It comes with its own small subset of rules,

But in terms of the requirements for logging solo, all flight time logging questions ultimately look to 61.51, coincidentally entitled, “Pilot Logbooks.”
 
ImABird said:
Apparently that flight with your son doesn't count

But just count it anyway.

It's not like this can be checked. And to redo a 300nm flight which let's be honest for most people means 600nm, is brutal.

Why would they want you to fly 300nm solo for commercial when your supposed to carry passengers and get used to it? Weird
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A 300 mile flight, even if you double back, is not brutal. Itks a fun adventure. If it’s too much of a time or mental energy commitment, or too expensive, then you need to either buck up and handle it like a pro or commit yourself to not going beyond private pilot.
 
ImABird said:
Apparently that flight with your son doesn't count

But just count it anyway.

It's not like this can be checked. And to redo a 300nm flight which let's be honest for most people means 600nm, is brutal.

Why would they want you to fly 300nm solo for commercial when your supposed to carry passengers and get used to it? Weird
Click to expand...

iamtheari said:
I hope your confusion continues and you never get your commercial pilot license. At least not until you correct your respect for the rules. Your flippant attitude toward the regulations will get people killed and I don’t think that they should pay you for the privilege.
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midlifeflyer said:
Cool. The recommendation to lie about meeting regulatory requirements (a federal criminal offense too) puts all your other questions in their proper context.
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I agree. The OP's post here does really tie all of his/her previous posts and topics together nicely, doesn't it? Actually it makes it much easier to answer. The OP has mostly been concerned with how to do everything as efficiently as possible. Well, the answer is obvious, what could be more efficient than just not flying the requirements, but logging that you did? Easy to meet all the requirements in just a few minutes with your logbook.

I don't think there's any point in attempting to further answer the OP's questions, or help him/her out, given that post above.
 
RussR said:
I agree. The OP's post here does really tie all of his/her previous posts and topics together nicely, doesn't it? Actually it makes it much easier to answer. The OP has mostly been concerned with how to do everything as efficiently as possible. Well, the answer is obvious, what could be more efficient than just not flying the requirements, but logging that you did? Easy to meet all the requirements in just a few minutes with your logbook.

I don't think there's any point in attempting to further answer the OP's questions, or help him/her out, given that post above.
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That's why I have over 50,000 flight hours in 20 years.
 
EdFred said:
I have 7 ATP ratings! (just don't check the FAA Airman Database to verify)
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Well, you can't expect us not to check the airman database now! You've got a pretty interesting resume.

Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
Date of Issue: 12/16/1903

Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA
GLIDER
LIGHTER THAN AIR BALLOON
LIGHTER THAN AIR DIRIGIBLE
HANG GLIDER
LIGHTER THAN AIR 99 RED BALLOONS TIED TO A LAWN CHAIR

PRIVATE PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

Limits:

ENGLISH PROFICIENT
 
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iamtheari said:
Well, you can't expect us not to check the airman database now! You've got a pretty interesting resume.

Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
Date of Issue: 12/16/1903

Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
GLIDER
LIGHTER THAN AIR BALLOON
LIGHTER THAN AIR DIRIGIBLE
HANG GLIDER
LIGHTER THAN AIR 99 RED BALLOONS TIED TO A LAWN CHAIR

PRIVATE PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

Limits:

ENGLISH PROFICIENT
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Are you sure he is English Proficient....or just current. :goofy:
 
iamtheari said:
Well, you can't expect us not to check the airman database now! You've got a pretty interesting resume.

Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
Date of Issue: 12/16/1903

Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
GLIDER
LIGHTER THAN AIR BALLOON
LIGHTER THAN AIR DIRIGIBLE
HANG GLIDER
LIGHTER THAN AIR 99 RED BALLOONS TIED TO A LAWN CHAIR

PRIVATE PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

Limits:

ENGLISH PROFICIENT
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I like that I am an ATP and Private for ASEL.
 
EdFred said:
I like that I am an ATP and Private for ASEL.
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Copy and paste error. I'll correct my post momentarily. I almost gave you a DC-3 seaplane rating but that would almost make sense in the real world, so I rescinded it. :)
 
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