Glider towing

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DaytonaLynn

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One who misses Daytona!
I'm a happy ppl guy. Near 60 years old contemplating getting my IR.
Had a CFI tell me I should get my tail wheel endorsement so I could tow up gliders and get part of my flight paid for.
Now unless I'm mistaken don't you have to have your commercial to receive compensation for towing. Do I understand the FAR correct.
Having said that are any of you towing up gliders?
What plane are you using.

Thanks:confused:
 
There is an exception for glider towing with a ppl. You'll need quite a bit of tw time tho
 
You don't need that much tail wheel time. And yes, you can be compensated for towing as a Pvt pilot. Check out 61.113(g).

We take Pvt Pilots with at least 200 hrs total time, put them through a 10 hr minimum tailwheel course, then a 2-3 hr towing qualification course.

We fly a 250HP fixed pitch Piper Pawnee, so they need to have their HP endorsement. We'll do the tail wheel endorsement and tow endorsements. If you can fly a Super Cub, Husky, Decathalon, or C-170. You can handle the Pawnee.

We want you to be a glider pilot first, we are a soaring club.
We don't pay our towing pilots, they do get a discount on their annual dues.
We are a club, that means, volunteers.
 
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I tow occasionally but haven't towed in a tailwheel airplane since I moved to Wichita. We have 182 and a souped up 175 in our club here. Towed with a SuperCub in college. Its a fun way to keep proficient.
 
First it's good to know you can get some compensation.

Second. I like the idea of flight time or reduced fee for club. I am not part of a club that has gliders, but there is a glider community near me and I understand they are always looking for someone to take them up.
I am closing in on 200 hours, so perhaps getting the tow expe may be good idea. Who can't appreciate a cheaper way to fly?

I would have to use a 172 at this time. But soon may have access to a decathlon.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
First it's good to know you can get some compensation.

Second. I like the idea of flight time or reduced fee for club. I am not part of a club that has gliders, but there is a glider community near me and I understand they are always looking for someone to take them up.
I am closing in on 200 hours, so perhaps getting the tow expe may be good idea. Who can't appreciate a cheaper way to fly?

I would have to use a 172 at this time. But soon may have access to a decathlon.
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Find out what the locals are using for towing. A C172 is not a good tow ship, at least not at our high da altitudes out west.
 
I haven't towed for a couple of years but when I did I flew a PA-11 Super Cruiser with a 160 hp engine. Towing is fun but it is also serious business. You are always aware that there is another aircraft involved that can do things you don't expect or like.
In cases that I know of, the compensation is you get free flight time. You may get a discount on flying the tow plane when it is not towing. Much of the compensation is the social aspect of hanging around a nice group of people when you are between tows, but make no mistake, it's an awful lot like a job if you aren't doing it for the joy of it.
Towing to build flight time is priced right, but the time build up is fairly slow. And, what do you need the time for? Do you need XX hours so you can fly charter?
If it fits your goals, it's a fine deal. I enjoyed it.
 
BillTIZ said:
Find out what the locals are using for towing. A C172 is not a good tow ship, at least not at our high da altitudes out west.
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we have a couple privately owned 180 hp converted 172s here that tow single seaters just fine. Probably wouldn't want to make a habit out of towing heavy two seaters or ballasted racers with them but we have towed a 2-33 with one of them and it was acceptable.

Other locals have a stock 172 which they use to successfully tow a Russia and Apis. Both very lightweight single seaters. They won't tow anything heavier though.
 
We use a STOL Cessna A150L with a 180HP engine. It handles fairly heavy two seaters okay. I've given 2100 tows to date in it. I've towed with a 180HP 172 and it was not anywhere as good a towplane as the Aerobat. Tow pilots get a couple bucks per tow--enough to pay for their gas to get to the field. Current tow pilots also don't have to pay dues so if they want to rent a glider, it's a discount. We're a non-profit club.
 
Way back I towed out of SoCal using a J4 with a 150HP in it. I never asked for money, just the hours towing. We operated out of a short dirt field with reservoir off the end of the runway. I used to take my GF in the back seat when towing a single, she only weight about 98Lbs. One of her first flights ever was towing a glider off a dirt strip so it was an interesting intro to aviation for her.

<edit: now that I remember, it had a O-290 in it so maybe a 125HP?>
 
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Can someone describe what a tow / launch looks like?

I've see some glider videos, but haven't heard about this from the tow pilot's perspective.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Can someone describe what a tow / launch looks like?

I've see some glider videos, but haven't heard about this from the tow pilot's perspective.
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Well, you start the day at the bar, and after a few belts.....

Seriously, you usually don't start engine until the glider is ready, and they give you the thumbs up. If you are repeat towing, of course you just wait by the side until they are ready. Then you pull past the glider, trying to keep your prop wash directly off the glider and the ground helper. Pull up a few hundred feet but not longer than the tow cable and idle down. The ground helper will hook the glider to the tow plane and give a few good hard tugs. If the ground guy is good, he'll tap your rudder to let you know it's hooked up right, and you are ready. Take up the slack, then wag the rudder to the glider pilot. He will wag his tail to confirm. Check the ground guy has the wing tip and is ready to run, then give it the gas. Lots of rudder is needed at the start to keep things straight. The ground guy will stop running and the glider will usually lift off before the tow. Once you reach flying speed, gently lift off, and trust that the glider will stay in-trail both laterally and vertically. I've had glider guys try to out-climb me on the line, and the solution to that is to reduce throttle and push over into a gentle dive. That will get their attention right away. Throttle back to the gliders' best L/D is useful, or if you're in a hurry, keep the power on and head for the thermals/ridge. The glider is responsible for release, and they'll usually let you know with a wing wag, or rudder wag when they are ready.

I'm guessing things have gotten more 'professional' in the past 30 years, but that was how I did it. YMMV.
 
... I'll add:

You can simulate, somewhat, by taking off with carb heat on, and someone yanking on all the controls. (At least that what how I was taught in simulated tows.)

What you can't simulate is the pull the glider has behind you as the rope stretches and contracts. Each time the glider gives/takes slack on the rope you'll either surge ahead or get dragged back. On a hot, turbulent day, having someone behind you who is not smooth on tow can be real work. Or when they box the wake and you have the glider trying to drag your tail to one extreme or the other.

Sometimes, during the ground roll, you can really feel when the glider gets off the ground. The glider now doesn't have that extra drag of rolling on the ground, and I've been able to feel a little acceleration.

On the release, you'll sometimes hear a thump as the rope snaps loose, and normally feel some acceleration. Then look behind you to verify the glider is turning away, and the rope has released, and start your turn to head back for more.

It's really not that glamorous...
 
then there are those bastard glider pilots that try and sneak a release when the tow pilot isn't paying attention. and the tow pilots that get their revenge by slowly reducing throttle until they have a reserve of power to give a fake thermal bump with. nasty business.
 
Well, obviously things are different in different places. All this wigging and wagging has some basis in SSA recommendations but it important to verify what the local signals are - they're not all the same. We have signals but most communication is by radio.
When I'm ready to drop off tow, I pull the release. No need to tell the tow pilot about that - he knows instantly. I turn 45° to the right and he turns left.
Yes, a clumsy pilot or bad thermals can put a lot of surging in the line. I've never had a tow rope break (knock on wood) as tow or glider pilot.
 
In the 70s, most glider pilots/owners would balk about putting a 10Lb battery, and a 12Lb tube radio in their plane so they could say 'ready', and then 'go'. Never had a problem communicating without comms.
 
ClimbnSink said:
then there are those bastard glider pilots that try and sneak a release when the tow pilot isn't paying attention. and the tow pilots that get their revenge by slowly reducing throttle until they have a reserve of power to give a fake thermal bump with. nasty business.
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At our club we confirm what altitude the glider is gonna pull at and call that good. Now if I find myself with the VVI pegged I will pull early and if I dont feel a single bump Ill give the tow a call and say keep going.
 
most places i've flown and almost everywhere in the US that i know of, the rope stays attached the towplane and is hooked up to the glider for each launch. we land with the rope. some places do drop the rope to save wear and tear. that adds to turn around time though.

i've never found any good reason to reduce power when flying the towplane.
 
tonycondon said:
i've never found any good reason to reduce power when flying the towplane.
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Reduce rpm slowly throughout the upper end of the climb, then pitch up and throttle up done right you can trick the glider pilot into thinking they ran into a thermal, only likely to work once per pilot.
 
The only major stumbling block may be meeting insurance requirements... total time and time in make/model. That's mostly what's keeping me from going for the sign-off to tow for our club. There's more, like my lapsed medical and not enough opportunities to tag along on tows, but my total time and make/model time is too light for our club's insurance (which covers the whole operation and all pilots and aircraft involved). It's reasonable- I haven't even landed the Citabria yet; I need to be real comfy with it before I add the variable of another aircraft, 200 feet of rope, and another PIC. Our towplane only has 150hp, too, which narrows the error margin considerably.
I forget the actual numbers, but let's just say I have a ways to go. :rolleyes:

But other than that, the only requirements from the FAA, other than the usual PP stuff, are 100 hrs. PIC in category, and being signed off to tow. Currency requires three simulated or actual tows in previous 12 months... OR three flights as glider PIC being towed.
I'd highly recommend taking some glider dual first, if not completing the PP-G... or at least working towards that while you begin flying as tow pilot.
It's nice when the glider PIC also has flown power, but I'd say the tow pilot is at much greater risk, generally speaking... especially if they have never flown a glider. They should be able to think ahead of the glider as well as the tow plane they are flying.
I am happy to only get towed by some experienced glider pilots, and since they know I got my glider rating after the PPASEL, they know better than to trust me too much when I am at the end of that rope. :D
 
One of my favorite tow stories, a guy came back after a tow, landed then turned around to taxi back in the dirt, ran over the tow line with his right wheel and wrapped it around the axle about 12 times before it stopped him. Then, we had a glider coming back for landing, and he's sitting down there on the runway, la-de-da, unwrapping the line from his wheel. Entertainment value was pretty high, gliders don't go around well.
 
when you need to go around in a glider, you actually go AROUND whatever is in your way :)
 
ClimbnSink said:
Reduce rpm slowly throughout the upper end of the climb, then pitch up and throttle up done right you can trick the glider pilot into thinking they ran into a thermal, only likely to work once per pilot.
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A good glider pilot will know that the tow can oly give 4-5knt on the vario (400-500fpm), if the tow pilot powers back, you don't see the "norm" and don't get off. Need a consistent 600+ fpm to show the lift.

Now our 1-26 pilots really have an issue, the O-540 on the Pawnee will give 10knt up (1000Fpm) at 55-60kias. the glider vario is pegged. Have to trust tow when he class 1500fpm or gives you a wing wag to get off!
 
rottydaddy said:
The only major stumbling block may be meeting insurance requirements... total time and time in make/model. That's mostly what's keeping me from going for the sign-off to tow for our club. There's more, like my lapsed medical and not enough opportunities to tag along on tows, but my total time and make/model time is too light for our club's insurance (which covers the whole operation and all pilots and aircraft involved). It's reasonable- I haven't even landed the Citabria yet; I need to be real comfy with it before I add the variable of another aircraft, 200 feet of rope, and another PIC. Our towplane only has 150hp, too, which narrows the error margin considerably.
I forget the actual numbers, but let's just say I have a ways to go. :rolleyes:

But other than that, the only requirements from the FAA, other than the usual PP stuff, are 100 hrs. PIC in category, and being signed off to tow. Currency requires three simulated or actual tows in previous 12 months... OR three flights as glider PIC being towed.
I'd highly recommend taking some glider dual first, if not completing the PP-G... or at least working towards that while you begin flying as tow pilot.
It's nice when the glider PIC also has flown power, but I'd say the tow pilot is at much greater risk, generally speaking... especially if they have never flown a glider. They should be able to think ahead of the glider as well as the tow plane they are flying.
I am happy to only get towed by some experienced glider pilots, and since they know I got my glider rating after the PPASEL, they know better than to trust me too much when I am at the end of that rope. :D
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Most insurance requires 200hrs total time and 25 hrs time in type. If not then you need to be named on the policy. It's hard to get 25 hrs time in type without the insurance first.

Our insurance is open, meet the FARs and if we say a pilot is qualified to fly tow in our Pawnee, he is covered.

They changed the FARs, I believe it's a 24 month currency now, not 12.
 
BillTIZ said:
Most insurance requires 200hrs total time and 25 hrs time in type. If not then you need to be named on the policy. It's hard to get 25 hrs time in type without the insurance first.

Our insurance is open, meet the FARs and if we say a pilot is qualified to fly tow in our Pawnee, he is covered.

They changed the FARs, I believe it's a 24 month currency now, not 12.
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From what I was told, our insurance used to be 500 hrs and 100 tailwheel time (towing with a super cub). That seemed a little excessive, but the insurance company would start considering you as a named pilot at about half that.

But we're now on an open policy too - if you meet the mins in the regs, it's up to us to decide whether you to let you tow. My club generally doesn't accept tow pilots who don't know how to fly gliders. I believe one of the tow pilots doesn't have a glider rating, but has soloed a glider. As far as I know, all the other tow pilots are also rated glider pilots. That's something to ask about.


ClimbnSink said:
Reduce rpm slowly throughout the upper end of the climb, then pitch up and throttle up done right you can trick the glider pilot into thinking they ran into a thermal, only likely to work once per pilot.
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Why would you want to do this?
 
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Our club insurance now matches the FAA requirements too. SSA pushed its insurance co to drop a lot of the more restrictive requirements and let clubs have more day in who they allow to tow. Too many clubs were having too hard a time finding tow pilots.
 
Matthew said:
Our club insurance now matches the FAA requirements too. SSA pushed its insurance co to drop a lot of the more restrictive requirements and let clubs have more day in who they allow to tow. Too many clubs were having too hard a time finding tow pilots.
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Not all SSA clubs got that benefit. Not if they had insuance claim issues, as in a high rate of problems.

We got the benefit.
 
I spent a week early this month towing for a contest. Contest is towing is a bit different than normal operations, we had 29 gliders to launch and wanted to try to launch them in under an hour. We had 2 Pawnee's and 2 c-182's towing, I was flying a 182.

The procedure is taxi up to the front of the line of gliders, a signal man would signal when to stop, as I am pulling up a rope runner grabs the rope with a hay hook and drags it in front of the glider, another ground crew hooks up the glider. This is completed just about the time I get the slack out of the rope and the signal man will signal for me to hold, taxi, or take off. As soon as the slack is out I get the take off signal. We take off and fly a large pattern (about 3 miles) to 2500 feet and level off if the glider hasn't released If the glider hasn't released by the base turn we descend with the glider (they all release prior to that) once the glider releases I make a descending left turn, slowly reducing power and increasing speed to about 140mph. Once I have descended a couple hundred feet I turn onto the base leg. I slowly keep reducing power but keep my speed up to 140mph unless I am catching up with the towplane in front of me. After turning final at about 300 feet i slow to flap speed, by leveling off and power is almost at idle now, I depoy full flaps, clear the end of the runway by 200 feet to avoid draging rope in the runway lights, land and try to make the turnoff at 1500 feet down the runway. Taxi to the front of the line of gliders on the parallel runway and repeat.

Depending on the thermals and gliders I end up towing I could launch 6 to 7 gliders per hour. Of course we only tow for about an hour to get all 29 gliders up. After the contest launch then one tow plane launches any non-contest gliders and the other goes on standby to retrieve any gliders that might land out at another airport and want a tow back to the airport.

Brian
 
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brcase said:
I spent a week early this month towing for a contest. Contest is towing is a bit different than normal operations, we had 29 gliders to launch and wanted to try to launch them in under an hour. We had 2 Pawnee's and 2 c-182's towing, I was flying a 182.

The procedure is taxi up to the front of the line of gliders, a signal man would signal when to stop, as I am pulling up a rope runner grabs the rope with a hay hook and drags it in front of the glider, another ground crew hooks up the glider. This is completed just about the time I get the slack out of the rope and the signal man will signal for me to hold, taxi, or take off. As soon as the slack is out I get the take off signal. We take off and fly a large pattern (about 3 miles) to 2500 feet and level off if the glider hasn't released If the glider hasn't released by the base turn we descend with the glider (they all release prior to that) once the glider releases I make a descending left turn, slowly reducing power and increasing speed to about 140mph. Once I have descended a couple hundred feet I turn onto the base leg. I slowly keep reducing power but keep my speed up to 140mph unless I am catching up with the towplane in front of me. After turning final at about 300 feet i slow to flap speed, by leveling off and power is almost at idle now, I depoy full flaps, clear the end of the runway by 200 feet to avoid draging rope in the runway lights, land and try to make the turnoff at 1500 feet down the runway. Taxi to the front of the line of gliders on the parallel runway and repeat.

Depending on the thermals and gliders I end up towing I could launch 6 to 7 gliders per hour. Of course we only tow for about an hour to get all 29 gliders up. After the contest launch then one tow plane launches any non-contest gliders and the other goes on standby to retrieve any gliders that might land out at another airport and want a tow back to the airport.

Brian
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Yes, contest towing is different. And it takes a good ground crew and safety observer, your singnal man.

I can get about 5-6 tows per hour at our operation, if the next glider and ground crew is ready. One tow plane, Pawnee.

Did you notice if the Pawnees always out climbed the C182s?
That Pawnee is not going to get to 140 in a dive.
 
we pretty much tow like that all the time.
 
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