You can't file D->!

[Let'sgoflying!]

AOPA Pilot Nov 09 p99
They are talking about filing, and the differences between what the books say, and what happens in the RW.
Finally, someone says it in a widely-read publication. Maybe one day the AIM will change too.
(note: local issues notwithstanding)

"It doesn't matter if the clearance limit is 10 miles away or 800, filing direct is fine, doesn't hurt the controller's feelings, and won't get you in trouble.."
and
"Everyone knows you can't file more than 100miles away, right?"(he says facetiously)

My stance has always been you can file whatever you want...they are going to give you something else much of the time anyway. And if you are great at guessing their plan, whoo-who - I see no huge benefit.

Even talks about clearing non /G aircraft to a navaid outside its ssv.


About time, I say. I think those articles by the well known atc gent are now considered dated by his colleagues.
And Twombly has done some flying in the system.

 

[tonycondon]

when i was flying charters i filed direct 99% of the time, and that was usually on 4-500 mile trips. the only time i ever didnt fly the flight as filed was when i went near chicago. almost every time i tried to anticipate an arrival or departure procedure if i was going into a major airport, it ended up getting all messed up anyway when the time came to actually fly it.

 

[CT Arrow]

My stance has always been you can file whatever you want...they are going to give you something else much of the time anyway..

I have found that using Fltplan or duats w/ auto routing works very well for flying in the Northeast. Most of the time you get "AF".

Outside of the region, D> works very well and/or just ask for it while enroute...

Your Mileage may vary

 

[vontresc]

I did the tower MSN approach tour last night, and learned some interesting things. fist off they told us to think of the ORD class bravo as a 15,000' mountain, and if we filed any thing other than KELSI they'd just chuckle and give us a reroute. Secondly they told us that they LOVE it when we are /G which makes their workload a ton easier.

 

[roncachamp]

I did the tower MSN approach tour last night, and learned some interesting things. fist off they told us to think of the ORD class bravo as a 15,000' mountain, and if we filed any thing other than KELSI they'd just chuckle and give us a reroute.

Are you sure that's what they said? That doesn't make a lot of sense. It would make some sense for IFR aircraft to think of Chicago approach as a 15,000' mountain, but the Class B airspace is irrelevant to them. It would make some sense for VFR aircraft to think of the Chicago Class B airspace as a 10,000' mountain.

 

[poadeleted20]

You can file anything you want, but you cannot accept any clearance you want. You must not, per 91.205(d)(2) (which was reworded a couple of years ago), accept a clearance unless you have the nav gear appropriate for the route of flight.

So, you are not permitted to accept a direct routing to any point for which you do not have nav gear to take you there directly (unless the controller is giving you vectors all the way to that point, and thus assuming responsibility for the navigation). That means if your end point isn't a navaid for which you have the appropriate receiver on board, you can't go "direct" without an IFR-approved area nav system like an IFR GPS. If it's a published intersection, and you don't have such a system, you can only accept a clearance to that intersection via one of the defining VOR radials. You cannot accept a "direct" clearance to a navaid beyond the SSV unless you are receiving it "suitable for navigation" at the time you accept the clearance (hence, the typical "Fly heading 300, when receiving Moosebutt VOR suitable for navigation, proceed direct" or words to that effect).

Any questions? Ask AFS-420 (Flight Technologies & Procedures Division-Flight Procedure Standards Branch).

 

[CJones]

I usually try to find the 'preferred route' and file that. Unfortunately, my routes are usually nowhere near 'preferred' routings, so I just go D-> and let them tell me where I need to be.

The only time I have been burned by this was coming out of OWD which is just barely outside the BOS 'B' ring to the south. I couldn't find a preferred routing, so I just filed D-> to an airport near Pittsburgh. The controller was miffed about what routing to give me. I sat on the ramp 10-15 mins waiting for a clearance and I finally shut down and went inside and called the BOS Center. It took him another 10 minutes to find a routing for me. To this day I am amazed that they didn't have a westbound routing from Boston memorized. I mean, you can only go so far EAST from Boston, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the first a/c to ever go WEST from the Boston area. WTF!?

Now that I have discovered fltplan.com, it will make life easier in the future.

 

[vontresc]

Are you sure that's what they said? That doesn't make a lot of sense. It would make some sense for IFR aircraft to think of Chicago approach as a 15,000' mountain, but the Class B airspace is irrelevant to them. It would make some sense for VFR aircraft to think of the Chicago Class B airspace as a 10,000' mountain.

He was talking IFR routings. Good lock getting cleared through the bravo without going to ORD, and not being a heavy.

 

[roncachamp]

He was talking IFR routings.

Well, then the Class B airspace is irrelevant. Traffic has to go over or around all of Chicago approach airspace which is considerably larger than the Class B airspace.

 

[flyersfan31]

I usually try to find the 'preferred route' and file that. Unfortunately, my routes are usually nowhere near 'preferred' routings, so I just go D-> and let them tell me where I need to be.

The only time I have been burned by this was coming out of OWD which is just barely outside the BOS 'B' ring to the south. I couldn't find a preferred routing, so I just filed D-> to an airport near Pittsburgh. The controller was miffed about what routing to give me. I sat on the ramp 10-15 mins waiting for a clearance and I finally shut down and went inside and called the BOS Center. It took him another 10 minutes to find a routing for me. To this day I am amazed that they didn't have a westbound routing from Boston memorized. I mean, you can only go so far EAST from Boston, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the first a/c to ever go WEST from the Boston area. WTF!?

Now that I have discovered fltplan.com, it will make life easier in the future.

That's weird. I just flew from OWD yesterday. Headed south, but I'm pretty surprised they didn't just send you via HFD and ALB, without even thinking about it. That's the general route. Maybe you had a newbie.

 

[sba55]

He was talking IFR routings. Good lock getting cleared through the bravo without going to ORD, and not being a heavy.

I think I've figured this out. Approach has a lazy attitude with many incompetent people (especially supervisors).

It's not about how heavy the plane is - it's about speed. If you can do 180 (doable in singles), you get completely different treatment - because you're less work. That aside, it's additional work to accept people into their airspace. Since they're lazy, they only let you in when they have no choice.

Maybe we should bring in some people from an approach facility with a good attitude. NCT/SCT come to mind....

I mentioned C90 to the training sup at one of those Tracons. Her comment was "yeah they're sort of the black sheep"....shameful.

-Felix

 

[Commander Dave]

It's not about how heavy the plane is - it's about speed. If you can do 180 (doable in singles), you get completely different treatment - because you're less work.

I know of a certain controller at Philly (came from Reading) who referred to us GA fliers as "TOADS" because we hopped so slowly across his screen.

He hated GA aircraft.

After handling the stress of Philly for a bit, I imagine he'd look forward to working the "toads" again - but thats just my opinion.

 

[Everskyward]

I know of a certain controller at Philly (came from Reading) who referred to us GA fliers as "TOADS" because we hopped so slowly across his screen.

He hated GA aircraft.

After handling the stress of Philly for a bit, I imagine he'd look forward to working the "toads" again - but thats just my opinion.

I don't think it's so much about the absolute speed but the mix of speeds. Most aircraft they are handling are fast and when you put a slow one in there it makes things harder. Now if most of the aircraft were "toads" they wouldn't be happy about having to accommodate a fast one.

 

[Commander Dave]

Valid point

But he hated us at Reading too, where most of us are "toads" this is why he chose to move to a bigger facility.

LOL - That, and the subsequent pay raise.

 

[sba55]

Seems so strange to me. If you want to work in ATC, you'll have to work with a variety of customers. Don't work there if you don't like it?

 

[roncachamp]

Seems so strange to me. If you want to work in ATC, you'll have to work with a variety of customers. Don't work there if you don't like it?

Not everyone can work for the post office.

 

[wsuffa]

I usually try to find the 'preferred route' and file that. Unfortunately, my routes are usually nowhere near 'preferred' routings, so I just go D-> and let them tell me where I need to be.

The only time I have been burned by this was coming out of OWD which is just barely outside the BOS 'B' ring to the south. I couldn't find a preferred routing, so I just filed D-> to an airport near Pittsburgh. The controller was miffed about what routing to give me. I sat on the ramp 10-15 mins waiting for a clearance and I finally shut down and went inside and called the BOS Center. It took him another 10 minutes to find a routing for me. To this day I am amazed that they didn't have a westbound routing from Boston memorized. I mean, you can only go so far EAST from Boston, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the first a/c to ever go WEST from the Boston area. WTF!?

Now that I have discovered fltplan.com, it will make life easier in the future.

Hmmm... I didn't have any trouble out of OWD recently - in fact, Boston helped me out with some shortcuts.

 

[CJones]

That's weird. I just flew from OWD yesterday. Headed south, but I'm pretty surprised they didn't just send you via HFD and ALB, without even thinking about it. That's the general route. Maybe you had a newbie.

Hmmm... I didn't have any trouble out of OWD recently - in fact, Boston helped me out with some shortcuts.

Yes. I was extremely surprised to have it be such an issue for them. We were one of 3 planes on the ramp at OWD, so I don't know if they just didn't want to 'do' anything or if they really didn't have a clue.

We were going OWD -> UCP (just north of PIT). The route we ended up getting was "GLYDE V292 SAGES V408 LHY V58 FQM", which was a bit more convoluted than I had hoped for, but still definitely do-able. I was really surprised that they didn't have a standard westbound 'get out of our way' type of routing committed to memory.

Oh well.. Live an learn...

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Yes. I was extremely surprised to have it be such an issue for them. We were one of 3 planes on the ramp at OWD, so I don't know if they just didn't want to 'do' anything or if they really didn't have a clue.

We were going OWD -> UCP (just north of PIT). The route we ended up getting was "GLYDE V292 SAGES V408 LHY V58 FQM", which was a bit more convoluted than I had hoped for, but still definitely do-able. I was really surprised that they didn't have a standard westbound 'get out of our way' type of routing committed to memory.

Oh well.. Live an learn...

The other one they like to give is GLYDE CTR V270 DNY CIP thence...... sorry it took so long to get you out the door!

 

[sba55]

Not everyone can work for the post office.

The post office is a good analogy. Do you not deliver mail because some people get a lot and some get very little? It's part of the job!

 

[flyersfan31]

I was really surprised that they didn't have a standard westbound 'get out of our way' type of routing committed to memory.

My thought exactly. Strange.

 

[Palmpilot]

That means if your end point isn't a navaid for which you have the appropriate receiver on board, you can't go "direct" without an IFR-approved area nav system like an IFR GPS.

On the Red Board you said that one can go direct from a VOR-DME to any specific radial and distance within the service volume.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's not about how heavy the plane is - it's about speed. If you can do 180 (doable in singles), you get completely different treatment - because you're less work.

Even faster birds get routed around. Ask Tony, who got routed around in the 421. I've heard a TON of airplanes get reroutes around ChiApp airspace, including King Airs and other faster birds. They get asked if they'd like to go over the lake or not. Not = KELSI.

Maybe we should bring in some people from an approach facility with a good attitude. NCT/SCT come to mind....

A-Freakin'-men. Norcal Approach is about as close to the polar opposite of Chicago Approach as you can get.

 

[roncachamp]

On the Red Board you said that one can go direct from a VOR-DME to any specific radial and distance within the service volume.

Are you sure? ISTR he said only published VOR radials could be used.

 

[tonycondon]

yea i had several times headed more or less west to east along the south edge of chicago and i usually got KELSI or further south, in the 421 truing out about 185 or 190 knots. And I was never allowed to descend until clear of Chi Approaches airspace to the east.

 

[Palmpilot]

Are you sure? ISTR he said only published VOR radials could be used.

My recollection is that he said you could file to a point defined by a radial and DME, but not to the airport underlying that point.

 

[Palmpilot]

Found it:

After reading what it says in those paragraphs, I agree that such an assignment can be made along a radial within the SSV. However, that does not mean a controller can clear an aircraft direct to an airport (the issue which got this started) unless there's a navaid on the airport or the aircraft is /E, /F, /G, or /R equipped. The closest the controller can come is to clear the aircraft "via the xxx radial to the yy DME fix" for a /A aircraft. For a /U aircraft, the controller will have to clear the aircraft to some defined point on the radial such as the intersection of that radial and another, since the pilot would have no way to know when s/he has reached that point otherwise. [emphasis added]

http://forums.aopa.org/showpost.php?p=998111&postcount=129

 

[poadeleted20]

On the Red Board you said that one can go direct from a VOR-DME to any specific radial and distance within the service volume.

You should have read my whole post, as I said you could go via a defining radial. And, since you bring up rrr/ddd fixes, you could also go via the defining arc.

 

[roncachamp]

My recollection is that he said you could file to a point defined by a radial and DME, but not to the airport underlying that point.

My recollection is he said much that indicated VOR navigation is a mystery to him. Do you remember the thread title?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I was really surprised that they didn't have a standard westbound 'get out of our way' type of routing committed to memory.

It gets even more interesting when you factor in the agreements between various ATC facilities...

I've had to fly the last 100 miles of my trip at 4000 feet in a jet (almost required a fuel stop) because of the airspace transitions along my route. Nobody thought to give me a 10-degree turn to clear the airspace, which would have allowed me to fly my own profiles. (I found that out the next day, after a phone call to MSP center told me it was due to an Approach control requirement, and a phone call to Approach control told me it was due to a Center requirement, and another phone call to Center told me it was due to an Approach control requirement, and another call to Approach control told me it was due to a Center requirement, and I finally got somebody at the Center who knew something about the airspace.)

ALL jets flying between the Chicago area and the Minneapolis area are required to be on the published arrival routes...or at least, that's the clearance they're required to have. In the Citation, I spent less than 10% of my time actually ON the route because they kept having to vector me off so somebody could pass me. On one trip I calculated the mileage increase due to the zig-zagging at just under 40%. But phone calls to Minneapolis and Chicago centers resulted in absolutely no way there was any routing available for a jet EXCEPT the published arrival because they need traffic to flow smoothly in a line.

 

[Palmpilot]

My recollection is he said much that indicated VOR navigation is a mystery to him. Do you remember the thread title?

Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but the thread title was "IFR Route Filing and Lost Comm Procedures." (See link above.)

 

[Everskyward]

In the Citation, I spent less than 10% of my time actually ON the route because they kept having to vector me off so somebody could pass me.

I fly a Citation too.

Albeit one that can keep up... sort of...

 

[roncachamp]

Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but the thread title was "IFR Route Filing and Lost Comm Procedures." (See link above.)

Got it, thanks.