Yoke all the way back during taxi why?

[neilw2]

Well i'm going to let this thread go because I don't understand:
a) why it is such a problem to just taxi that way if that is what he wanted
b) why you refuse to acknowledge that some other people here who own/fly similar airplanes tend to do this way and have a pretty valid reason behind it based not on the POH but first hand operators knowledge
c) Why you would think with 300+ hours you know everything there is to know about airplanes (this coming from a 300 hr pilot)

Also one last observation: Some of the best instruction I have received was from a grumpy old CFI with 10,000+ hrs. I wouldn't want to fly with the guy every day but I got a TON from those lessons and value his experiences.

 

[kgruber]

I did ask the CFII and he was adamant that it will damage nose gear if I do not always taxi with yoke all the way back. What nonsense! Plus I got tired of him treating me like an inexperienced student pilot when I've been flying for few years with 300+ hours. He also kept yelling at me in the cockpit so that was enough. He lost another student recently for same issue. However the flying club doesn't care.

I get it now. It is "just" a club airplane..........and how it is treated by a beginner is of no concern.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Keep in mind, the majority of your taxiing is WITH the wind. Why?
If you are taxiing with the wind more than the wind created by the propeller (stick your hand out the window to tell), which way do you want the stick to be to relieve pressure on the nosewheel (or keep the tail down on a taildragger)?
Dont get into this reflexive, stick back mode. Sometimes its stick forward. Be there.

You have to think about it.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I did ask the CFII and he was adamant that it will damage nose gear if I do not always taxi with yoke all the way back. What nonsense! Plus I got tired of him treating me like an inexperienced student pilot when I've been flying for few years with 300+ hours. He also kept yelling at me in the cockpit so that was enough. He lost another student recently for same issue. However the flying club doesn't care.

Free market will take care of him.

 

[Blueangel]

Yeah well since I am buying a plane soon, I told him that our relationship is ended in a nice way. I liked a lot of what he had to teach me and I did learn a lot so it was not a complete loss. However since he has no experience in type of the plane I am buying, I need to finish with another instructor.

 

[Blueangel]

Keep in mind, the majority of your taxiing is WITH the wind. Why?
If you are taxiing with the wind more than the wind created by the propeller (stick your hand out the window to tell), which way do you want the stick to be to relieve pressure on the nosewheel (or keep the tail down on a taildragger)?
Dont get into this reflexive, stick back mode. Sometimes its stick forward. Be there.

You have to think about it.

Yeah thats what I told him and he FINALLY relented and admitted as such. I think that since he owns and flys a CUB that affects his mindset. Still, he is nice guy and good instructor so I really don't regret the time and funds spent training with him. On last flight he was ok with no having yoke back on calm day. I told him that yeah the cross wind is coming from left and had yoke deflected as such and he was ok with it.

 

[saddletramp]

I worked for a large flight school in the mid 70's as a CFI. We had a small fleet of 150's as primary trainers. We always taught the students to keep the yoke back while taxiing. The reason was simple...the abused 150's had constant problems with nose wheel shimmy.

I'm I the only one who finds this quite normal?

 

[Blueangel]

Well the one 172 I flew had a nose gear that was shot to hell in a hand basket. Owner is fixing it right now. Maybe that was reason behind the CFI reasoning to hold yoke back. No other CFI ever asked me to do that before and no other rentals were damaged.

 

[Bobcat1]

...I think that since he owns and flys a CUB that affects his mindset...

He'll flip his Cub one day when he's taxiing downwind on a gusty day. You'll do well to be done with that idiot.

 

[Stewartb]

Reality check. Most guys train in nose dragger Cessnas on relatively calm days. Trainer Cessnas have crappy structure at the nose gear attach so pilots are trained to take it as easy on the nose gear as possible. As for the Cub flipping? It had better be blowing 45 or better and even then there's little chance of it up-ending itself. A Cub's AOA in 3-point is hard to overcome with elevator when taxiing downwind. It may want to swap ends. More likely the struts will try to collapse from the overload, but that's a different problem.

 

[MAKG1]

It may not seem like it, but you'd be surprised (or maybe not) at how little effort it takes to "pop a wheelie" while taxiing. Leaving the yoke full forward or neutral can put a lot of weight on the wheel in some airplanes.

With power, it doesn't take much, but I can't do it near idle unless I'm taxiing into the wind (not very common). I find I need VERY little power at a level airport, especially if the wind is behind me, like it usually is when taxiing to the active runway.

I suppose if I taxied faster, I might have an easier time.

 

[coloradobluesky]

In a taildragger, if the stick is back that causes the elevator to go up. As the tailwind lifts the tail of the plane up, more and more elevator and is exposed to the wind causing more and more lifting of the tail up, and over she can go. It can happen when taxiing with a strong tailwind. Or even standing still with a strong tailwind gust.

This instinctive "pull the stick back" in when the nose dips, is NOT a good habit to get into. You need to think about it.

Its one reason why its a good idea to learn wheel landings in taildragger. When you touch down, you give the stick a slight, quick push forward to "stick it". Unfortunately a lot of taildragger pilots never really learn how to do wheel landings, usually because their instructor doesn't know how. (some taildraggers dont have the prop clearance and it cant be safely done in them). Oh well.

 

[LongRoadBob]

For a 172, this should apply, and I think might even be in the POH:

Insisting on full stick back while taxiing on a hard surface is not in line with most recommendations for taxiing a nose wheel aircraft.

I'm just a new student, but this is what I learn in my textbook. It makes sense to me.

 

[BiffJ]

As a tailwheel pilot from the beginning its best to keep the stick (wheel) back in a tailwheel plane unless its windy. Show the top of the control surface to the wind was the thing I was taught. That pretty much is the same as the wind and control diagram posted earlier. As for the Cessna thing taxiing isn't a big load on the nosewheel unless you are in a 182 or bumpy rough ground. Neutral is fine til your nosewheel steering starts getting a little loose from wear. At that point shimmy becomes a when and not an if. Keeping the wheel light doesn't always help shimmy, sometimes it makes it worse. Shimmy isn't always related to speed, it can be affected by the angle of the wheel and strut in relation to the direction of travel.

Frank

 

[airheadpenguin]

I worked for a large flight school in the mid 70's as a CFI. We had a small fleet of 150's as primary trainers. We always taught the students to keep the yoke back while taxiing. The reason was simple...the abused 150's had constant problems with nose wheel shimmy.

I'm I the only one who finds this quite normal?

This situation is an opportunity for the CFI to SHOW the student the nose gear structure and explain how it works along with WHY keeping weight off of it is a good thing. This way the student learns lessons that can be applied in other situations. If he understands the bushings and the scissor mechanism bracing the nosewheel they'll be able to contribute to the maintenance process rather than just writing up "wheel shimmy on rollout"

 

[denverpilot]

It may not seem like it, but you'd be surprised (or maybe not) at how little effort it takes to "pop a wheelie" while taxiing. Leaving the yoke full forward or neutral can put a lot of weight on the wheel in some airplanes.

Would be pretty hard in my nose-heavy 182... Ha.

See W&B chart...

I worked for a large flight school in the mid 70's as a CFI. We had a small fleet of 150's as primary trainers. We always taught the students to keep the yoke back while taxiing. The reason was simple...the abused 150's had constant problems with nose wheel shimmy.

I'm I the only one who finds this quite normal?

Cessna nose wheel drivers probably "get it" more than anyone in this thread. It's just hard on crap up there to bang the nose gear over things.

And once you've had to PAY for a Cessna nose strut fix of any sort, you'll tend to treat them a lot nicer. Stuff wears out when abused.

Of course at least some subset of mechanics don't repair/understand Cessna nose wheel shimmy problems correctly, either. They'll keep messing with the shimmy dampener over and over, for some reason, you see this in rental airplane logs a lot, and never find the worn out part that's actually causing the problem. I have no idea why. I saw that personally with more than one Skyhawk, and different maintenance shops, back when I rented.

Seemed like a quick and dirty way to make it look like "something was done" in the squawk book, and hell, for all I knew (or any renter knows without asking the mechanic themselves) maybe the owners were told it wouldn't fix the problem and they were being cheap and wouldn't authorize a solid repair, to keep the thing flying instead of being down for a while to tear into the nose gear and see what was really wrong.

As a tailwheel pilot from the beginning its best to keep the stick (wheel) back in a tailwheel plane unless its windy. Show the top of the control surface to the wind was the thing I was taught.

Brings up an interesting side comment. Flying with a very new pilot friend once I realized that during "flight controls free and correct" he didn't know which way the ailerons should move without thinking about it. I showed him the thumb trick... (Grab yoke with hand opposite the aileron you're looking at, and stick your thumb straight up. Twist yoke toward that aileron and it should also go up. In a stick, just know the direction you move it is the side that will go up...)

Maybe I saved him from killing himself in a mis-rigged airplane someday. Dunno. I've certainly read that accident story a few times.

But he knows today how to check the fanged ailerons go the right direction. So he's got that going for him now.

Also know two people who've fought mis-rigged trim wheels and electric trim in two newer Cessnas in flight. I was taught to pull the yoke into my lap and look at the trim tab to see if it was in a reasonable position for takeoff back there, but not whether or not it moved the correct direction.

Your "show the top to the wind" made me think of these things. Some pilots couldn't tell ya without thinking about it, which one will go up if you turn the yoke right or left. Not all pilots of course, but if you need to do it in a hurry, it's better to know...

Elevator is a little easier for most folks to pick the correct movement for some reason.

 

[James331]

Reality check. Most guys train in nose dragger Cessnas on relatively calm days. Trainer Cessnas have crappy structure at the nose gear attach so pilots are trained to take it as easy on the nose gear as possible. As for the Cub flipping? It had better be blowing 45 or better and even then there's little chance of it up-ending itself. A Cub's AOA in 3-point is hard to overcome with elevator when taxiing downwind. It may want to swap ends. More likely the struts will try to collapse from the overload, but that's a different problem.

Exactly!

I really don't see the big deal here, nor do I think the stick back thing is that odd.

,,,yeah if it's the middle of a wind storm don't do it with a tailwind, but not many of these trainers are flying in those conditions anyways, and at 300hrs you really are still a low time pilot.

The thing the OP said which I did agree with 100% was about the CFI yelling, that crap I would be putting a swift end to, there is zero reason for that.

 

[Sgu2-22]

If as a habit you hold the yoke in any-which-way-but-loose you will never take-off with a control lock in place.

 

[Blueangel]

True but I always do a careful pre flight and have never done that. Anyways, I moved on. I figure this was the ONLY guy that such a pain to deal with and plenty of other instructors will be more concerned with IFR skill development that is why I am paying them in the first place.

 

[Kritchlow]

Always a fan of "climb into" and "dive away from".
It help the prop from picking up gravel.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Stick your hand out the window. If the relative wind from behind is overpowering the prop wind, you need the stick forward. But I don't think you EVER need the stick all the way back. Even a taildragger is unlikely to flip from headwind and stick most of the way forward, which is WRONG way charlie (I said unlikely, and most of the way). As the tail comes up from a headwind, the up force becomes less and less because of less of angle to the wind by the elevator and hoizontal stabilizer.
I teach to avoid the extremes and if in doubt got to neutral with the stick. All the way wrong is what flips you. A little wrong probably wont do anything all that bad, hopefully just scare you. If its 35 and headwind on the runway, it can be done. But you are going to have to taxi out or taxi back and manage the crosswind and tailwind while taxiing. Thats where the flips happen. 35 is enough to flip you if you do something wrong is most small airplanes. Even the bigger ones get to limits up in that region. You might say you will never do it with that much wind, but you might have to.

 

[Blueangel]

Well here in San Diego wind is usually no more than 10-20kts. Even in the windy bay area, it gets max 22 kts at most. Never had a plane flip yet and don't see need to have yoke back all the way all the time. I think this guy is trying to insist that everyone flies a cessna like the way he flies his tail dragger cub!

 

[coloradobluesky]

Well, no. I have seen an RJ stuck because if they moved forward they would be off the taxiway. They were trying to turn upwind to downwind in 30+ winds. If they would follow my 30+ procedure they would stand a chance. No one had a tow bar for them either. RJ towbars are unique.

If you are parked into the wind and its a high wind and you have to turn 180 to taxi to the runway, see if you can get the biggest fuel truck the FBO has to park so you are in its wind shadow. Then turn the plane around by hand or just use the brakes and pivot it. Then get your clearance onto the runway so you don't have to stop at the entrance to runway where you will have to do a 180 turn onto the runway. You dont want to have to stop there. Keep moving . Do the right thing with the yoke and you can do it if it can be done. I did it in a small taildragger in 35 this way and the RJ couldnt. After they saw me do it they called for THEIR big fuel truck and got it around. SOMBATCH!

Now Ill admit, it's not beginner territory. More like the expert slopes....

 

[MAKG1]

Well here in San Diego wind is usually no more than 10-20kts. Even in the windy bay area, it gets max 22 kts at most. Never had a plane flip yet and don't see need to have yoke back all the way all the time. I think this guy is trying to insist that everyone flies a cessna like the way he flies his tail dragger cub!

It got over 30 the weekend before last in the Bay Area. At SFO, it gusted to 45.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Exactly!

I really don't see the big deal here, nor do I think the stick back thing is that odd.

,,,yeah if it's the middle of a wind storm don't do it with a tailwind, but not many of these trainers are flying in those conditions anyways, and at 300hrs you really are still a low time pilot.

The thing the OP said which I did agree with 100% was about the CFI yelling, that crap I would be putting a swift end to, there is zero reason for that.

All this is true. I learned and got my ppl in a taildragger. You were taught to always have the stick or wheel back all the way. As for flying in high wind, no one did as the school was poor and did not want you f...... Up their airplane or kill yourself. I'm always sceptical of those who claim to fly light aircrft in high wind turbulent conditions. I think most of it is b.s. I have a lot of mooney hours and if your landing on grass you sure better have the wheel in your gut for obvious reasons. If the CFI yells, he's either mentally disturbed or has very few hours himself. In either case , get rid of him- her immed. As for 300 hours t.t., that's still baby stage.

 

[Blueangel]

Well it does not get that windy in San Diego most days even less than the bay area so not sure what bug was up this guys ass. Anyways I am done with him and moving on. Never had a past instructor give me a hard time on **** like this.