YIKES!! Shop rates went up

[PilotAlan]

My A&P shop that has been doing my annual for years has a new owner.
15 hours at $75/hr for the inspection alone, that's $1125 for the inspection. Add the mandatory oil, filter, typical consumables, and you're around $1200, BEFORE tax and BEFORE any squawks!

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

 

[wabower]

Sounds about right to me. What is the hourly rate at your car dealer or plumber?

My A&P shop that has been doing my annual for years has a new owner.
15 hours at $75/hr for the inspection alone, that's $1125 for the inspection. Add the mandatory oil, filter, typical consumables, and you're around $1200, BEFORE tax and BEFORE any squawks!

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

 

[Jim_R]

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

I am sure you can find places that will do the work for less. You will also find places that will cost more.

So no, it doesn't seem "way out of line" to me.

 

[EdFred]

Seems high for the number of hours on a Cherokee. The rate isn't that out of line, but mine was about that many hours for a Comanche.

 

[murphey]

My A&P shop that has been doing my annual for years has a new owner.
15 hours at $75/hr for the inspection alone, that's $1125 for the inspection. Add the mandatory oil, filter, typical consumables, and you're around $1200, BEFORE tax and BEFORE any squawks!

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

What Alan may or may not remember is that the hourly rate last month was $65/hr and this week, it's $75/hr. It was at $65/hr for years, which is one reason (one of many) the original owner went into bankruptcy. The shop was profitable, but just barely. That $10 increase is the first in many years.

As for consumables, I provide most of them myself. Sitting on the shelf in the hangar are filters (oil, air, vacuum, etc) as well as the oil, hydraulic fluid, etc. A few of us make a bulk purchase to cut down the costs. Alan, you really need to join the EAA chapter out here - we've got an oil supplier that delivers to the hangar at no additional cost.

You want to do an owner-assisted? Find Walt in the SE corner of the hangars, over by the Dove. There are a couple other A&P/IAs around that will let you do almost all the work in your hangar and sign off but don't let DH or KL find out you're using a tailgater. There's a shop up north (Erie? Greeley? or possibly APA, I forget where) that advertises a flat $650 fee for the inspection.

Go take a look at the Inspection Report in the PA28 Service Manual and estimate how long it will take to do all that. In the 2009 edition, it starts on fiche 3H15 -3I2 or pages 662-673.

As I explained when I was pricing overhauls - there are some things I buy at [Target/Kmart/Walmart] and there are other things I buy at Nordstrom's.

If you're around the airport this weekend, stop by my hangar and take a look at how much I'll be spending in September (annual)...

Ever see a battery sliced open like a hot knife thru butter?

 

[Bob Noel]

My A&P shop that has been doing my annual for years has a new owner.
15 hours at $75/hr for the inspection alone, that's $1125 for the inspection. Add the mandatory oil, filter, typical consumables, and you're around $1200, BEFORE tax and BEFORE any squawks!

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

15 hours seems right....at least that's about what I typically see on my cherokee 140. The hours go up a little or down a little depending on how much time I'm able to spend opening/closing the airplane, etc.

Don't tell my A&P and IA but I really wouldn't be able to complain if their rates went up from the $50/hr they currently charge. The hourly rates for a local motorcycle shop, my plumber, the car dealer service are all much higher.

 

[Jim_R]

My mechanic's good about letting owners assist. I'm sure a professional could do it faster, but it takes me the better part of a day to pull all the inspection panels, fairings, cowling, spinner, interior seats, baggage compartment floor, trim covers, and cable tunnel cover out of the plane so that the actual work can start. Takes me even longer to put it all back together.

It probably took me somewhere between 6-12 hrs to disassemble/reassemble all that stuff this year, and that's just prep work...it doesn't actually get anything *done*.

I did a lot of the research on my ADs for my first annual last year. What a PITA. I spent a whole day in front of the computer with my logbooks, occasionally running out to the plane to get serial #s off various components. The paperwork this year went a lot quicker, but it still takes time to look at each AD and make sure it's really complied with properly. It's a long list.

I've seen people say that they can do an annual in 8 hrs. I don't understand how that's possible. (Well, actually, I do...but it makes me cringe to think about how it's possible.)

 

[Bob Noel]

My mechanic's good about letting owners assist. I'm sure a professional could do it faster, but it takes me the better part of a day to pull all the inspection panels, fairings, cowling, spinner, interior seats, baggage compartment floor, trim covers, and cable tunnel cover out of the plane so that the actual work can start. Takes me even longer to put it all back together.

It probably took me somewhere between 6-12 hrs to disassemble/reassemble all that stuff this year, and that's just prep work...it doesn't actually get anything *done*.

I did a lot of the research on my ADs for my first annual last year. What a PITA. I spent a whole day in front of the computer with my logbooks, occasionally running out to the plane to get serial #s off various components. The paperwork this year went a lot quicker, but it still takes time to look at each AD and make sure it's really complied with properly. It's a long list.

I've seen people say that they can do an annual in 8 hrs. I don't understand how that's possible. (Well, actually, I do...but it makes me cringe to think about how it's possible.)

What airplane do you have?

This past annual is only took me about 2.5 hours to get my cherokee 140 opened up for the IA. And that included individually labeling each zip lock bag for the screws.

 

[kyleb]

My A&P shop that has been doing my annual for years has a new owner.
15 hours at $75/hr for the inspection alone, that's $1125 for the inspection. Add the mandatory oil, filter, typical consumables, and you're around $1200, BEFORE tax and BEFORE any squawks!

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

$75/hr sounds reasonable. How many hours has it taken in the past? If that has changed, I'd ask why.

 

[Clark1961]

$75/hr sounds reasonable. How many hours has it taken in the past? If that has changed, I'd ask why.

The shop has changed ownership and rates. No big deal since they were well under-priced. I've been telling them to charge me more for awhile now and I think they finally get it. A month ago I flat out told them that they had to charge me for everything they did. They have to charge enough to stay in business and they didn't do that prior to the ownership change. It's really simple economics and I do not begrudge my A&P-IA a living wage.

 

[murphey]

The shop has changed ownership and rates. No big deal since they were well under-priced. I've been telling them to charge me more for awhile now and I think they finally get it. A month ago I flat out told them that they had to charge me for everything they did. They have to charge enough to stay in business and they didn't do that prior to the ownership change. It's really simple economics and I do not begrudge my A&P-IA a living wage.

In the interest of full disclosure, should point out that Clark, Alan & I all use the same shop.

 

[PilotAlan]

You want to do an owner-assisted? Find Walt in the SE corner of the hangars, over by the Dove. There are a couple other A&P/IAs around that will let you do almost all the work in your hangar and sign off but don't let DH or KL find out you're using a tailgater.

I have done owner assist annuals, but currently with my work situation I simply cannot do it this time.
I guess one of the things that bothers me is that I have all my work done at the same shop, they have done all my AD compliance,there's nothing new and no ADs on the plane or engine, and they know the bird.
The inspection rate would be the same for a bird they see the first time, or one they've been wrenching on for years.

As far as providing oil and filters, I won't ask a shop to use my stuff. They have a markup on oil and filters, and that's part of their profit. I'm OK with that once a year.

Going somewhere else isn't an option. The annual snuck up on me and the bird's out of annual right now. I will have them do it, I just had a bit of sticker shock.

Murph, thanks for the offer, but I am driving to Oshkosh this weekend. Leaving Friday, coming back Thursday.

 

[Tom-D]

I worked all day today getting a C-172 thru annual, the owner did most of the work, and I did the inspection, compression test, and servicing.

$350 flat rate and I dropped a Iredium plug which I made good by buying another one.

If you like the shop, pay the bill, if not, find another A&P-IA.

 

[Richard]

I just don't get why owners seem so reluctant to engage in owner-assisted inspections. If an A&P refused to allow owner assist, find one who will. Pay the rate, learn your aircraft, save some money.

$75/hr is very in line. Heck, if he's a good A&P I'm gonna throw in an extra hunnerd or nice dinner for two to make sure he stays in business.

 

[Jim_R]

What airplane do you have?

This past annual is only took me about 2.5 hours to get my cherokee 140 opened up for the IA. And that included individually labeling each zip lock bag for the screws.

A Cherokee 180. Like I said, maybe someone with more experience could do it faster, but it definitely took me more than 2.5 hrs to pull all the stuff I listed, and it took me longer to put it all back together than it took to take it apart.

 

[Bob Noel]

A Cherokee 180. Like I said, maybe someone with more experience could do it faster, but it definitely took me more than 2.5 hrs to pull all the stuff I listed, and it took me longer to put it all back together than it took to take it apart.

I guess my advantage is that I've been doing owner-assisted since I bought the airplane in 1994 and I've worked with this IA since 2002. I'm pretty familar with what he wants opened up.

 

[steingar]

I just don't get why owners seem so reluctant to engage in owner-assisted inspections. If an A&P refused to allow owner assist, find one who will. Pay the rate, learn your aircraft, save some money.

Some of us have jobs to pay for the habit.

 

[Richard]

Some of us have jobs to pay for the habit.

Do you schedule an annual inspection via the same means you would schedule, say some time off from work?

 

[Bob Noel]

I just don't get why owners seem so reluctant to engage in owner-assisted inspections.

I would imagine that there are some owners that should not be let near an airplane while holding a screwdriver.

 

[PilotAlan]

Some of us have jobs to pay for the habit.

Bingo. The shop is open Mon-Fri 0800-1700. There's too much going on to be able to do it.
The first three annuals were owner assist, the last one and this one no.

 

[Richard]

I would imagine that there are some owners that should not be let near an airplane while holding a screwdriver.

True. Yet it seems O-A inspection is more rare than the dangerous screwdriver population would account for.

 

[JOhnH]

Do you schedule an annual inspection via the same means you would schedule, say some time off from work?

I own a business. Scheduling time off is difficult and stressful (more so in the past few years with the economy like it is). When I do schedule time off I want to FLY the plane somewhere. I don't want to skin my knuckles and strip out threads and put the screw back in the wrong hole later. 30-40 years ago I would do almost all of my own motor-cycle and auto maintenance. I did my own Oil changes, tune-ups, brake jobs, head gaskets, carburetor rebuilds, (2 barrel, not 4 barrels), etc. Today, I would rather pay someone to do it while I focus on what I need or want to focus on.

 

[PilotAlan]

Do you schedule an annual inspection via the same means you would schedule, say some time off from work?

No.
My annual is due on a date certain. My vacation availability is not so concrete. The only "locked down" vacation dates are the week of Oshkosh, and this year was dicey.
In the last three years I have had five weeks of vacation cancelled due to emergencies or unplanned events. So I want my airplane mantenance to be more reliable than my ability to get time off.

Most A&P shops schedule work farther out than I can schedule leave.

 

[dmac5356]

I do various work operations in prep for the annual over several weekends, a few hours at a time. I keep the plane flyable as I hate downtime. I use a checklist, adjusting as needed each year. I do much more than open covers... with most accessory items on a schedule for IRAN, OH, or replacement. This nearly eliminates breakdowns, which is important to me when on a vacation trip! The annual itself is a non-event, typically around 4 hours plus lunch with my IA. My annuals vary in labor cost from just lunch to a high of $400, depending on what we need to do. Plus oil, air filter, alternator belt, grease, tires, etc... which I source. Broken and worn items are dealt with throughout the year, nothing is deferred to the annual. YMMV, as may your costs.

 

[weirdjim]

My A&P shop that has been doing my annual for years has a new owner.
15 hours at $75/hr for the inspection alone, that's $1125 for the inspection. Add the mandatory oil, filter, typical consumables, and you're around $1200, BEFORE tax and BEFORE any squawks!

On a Cherokee 180!
Am I smoking crack, or does that seem way out of line?

Absolutely way out of line. Anybody that can't do an inspection on a simple Cherokee 180 (AFTER the owner has done the opening of the airplane for inspection) within 5 hours just doesn't know the airplane or is padding the bill.

There is NO mandatory oil, filter,and mandatory consumables required on an annual OTHER than the finger full of grease that is required on wheel bearings. Anything other than that is padding the bill.

You had best do a little checking on "owner assisted annuals" before too long.

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

I worked all day today getting a C-172 thru annual, the owner did most of the work, and I did the inspection, compression test, and servicing.

$350 flat rate and I dropped a Iredium plug which I made good by buying another one.

If you like the shop, pay the bill, if not, find another A&P-IA.

I'll buy that. Mine is a little less, but in the same ballpark.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

A Cherokee 180. Like I said, maybe someone with more experience could do it faster, but it definitely took me more than 2.5 hrs to pull all the stuff I listed, and it took me longer to put it all back together than it took to take it apart.

What the hell does PULLING THE STUFF (which may take an hour) take for me to look inside and INSPECT the mechanisms?

Jim

 

[bbchien]

Cadillac-Jaguar in Chicago- $92/hour.

 

[Jim_R]

Absolutely way out of line. Anybody that can't do an inspection on a simple Cherokee 180 (AFTER the owner has done the opening of the airplane for inspection) within 5 hours just doesn't know the airplane or is padding the bill.

There is NO mandatory oil, filter,and mandatory consumables required on an annual OTHER than the finger full of grease that is required on wheel bearings. Anything other than that is padding the bill.

Just out of curiosity, how do you manage to check the oil suction screen and sump plug (as required by FAR 43 App D) without losing any oil? Do you drain it, then pour it back into the engine after the screen and plug are back in place?

Appendix D
<snip>
(d) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) components of the engine and nacelle group as follows:
<snip>
(3) Internal engine--for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

 

[Jim_R]

What the hell does PULLING THE STUFF (which may take an hour) take for me to look inside and INSPECT the mechanisms?

I don't understand the question.

 

[weirdjim]

Just out of curiosity, how do you manage to check the oil suction screen and sump plug (as required by FAR 43 App D) without losing any oil? Do you drain it, then pour it back into the engine after the screen and plug are back in place?

I guess you just don't get it. The engine is drained and the screen/plug removed when I get to the airplane. If the owner has, say, 10 or 15 hours on $50-100 worth of oil and chooses to reuse it, then it is up to the owner how to handle it.

How the oil gets back into the engine for the mandatory run-up while I'm inspecting the rest of the torn-apart aircraft is not my worry. If the owner wants me to do the rest of the inspection and come back after lunch while he buttons the airplane back up for the final parts of the inspection, that is fine by me.

Time = Money. If you have more on one side of the equation than the other, then you balance the equation to your best advantage. Then again I work with a couple of doctors who maintain their own aircraft with what I would characterize as surgical precision. I know another couple of doctors who want somebody to do a slam-bam-thankyouma'am job on their aircraft.

Jim

 

[weirdjim]

I don't understand the question.

I guess not. It takes what, half an hour to completely pull the inspection plates on the underside of a Cessna wing? It takes another half hour to do the lubrication specified in the maintenance manual?

It takes ten minutes to look at all the mechanisms and surfaces in the wing and note that all the mechanisms appear to have been properly lubricated and another thirty seconds to note that the owner checked the "lubricated" box on his check sheet?

That's about a 6:1 ratio, no? And if I get $300 for an annual INSPECTION, then the owner did $1800 worth of WORK. See how the math works?

I agree. I lose my shirt on the first annual on an airplane because it is a three-day process to go over every little bit and piece with the owner to be sure that (s)he knows WHAT to maintain and HOW to do it. The next year is a two day process. Succeeding years (once I build up trust with the owner) I start making a few bucks. And the first time I find the owner cutting corners ("forgetting" to grease the wheel bearings, using Vaseline for lubricant, etc.) we have a long heart to heart talk about what it means to kill yourself in an airplane.

Jim

 

[Jim_R]

I guess you just don't get it. The engine is drained and the screen/plug removed when I get to the airplane. If the owner has, say, 10 or 15 hours on $50-100 worth of oil and chooses to reuse it, then it is up to the owner how to handle it.

How the oil gets back into the engine for the mandatory run-up while I'm inspecting the rest of the torn-apart aircraft is not my worry.

I didn't get it because it wasn't clear from your post how that happened. Now that you've explained it, I do. Thank you.