Yellowstone Park- September?

Cap'n Jack

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Cap'n Jack
Is September a good time to visit Yellowstone? I'm thinking most of the crowds are gone then, but the snow hasn't started yet.

Is there an flight school there that I could fly around with an instructor one day? I'd like to see Yellowstone and the Tetons from the air.

Thanks in advance!
 
http://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/hours.htm

http://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/open_closedates.htm#CP_JUMP_127510

September is absolutely a great time to visit, though one should consider that the later in the month one visits, the more likely that facilities will be closed and some higher elevation roads might be temporarily closed due to a snow storm. Spetember 25 is definitely the "drop dead" date for tourism, most of the facilities not already phased out for the summer close on that day.

I lived in the park there for five years and I remember autumn the best. Winter was a close second.

Nothing for flying in West Yellowstone. You might look at Cody or Powell for "flight instruction." Definitely Billings and Bozeman and (I think) Idaho Falls.
 
We've been to Yellowstone in September (and at many other times of the year), and its most excellent.

The crowds are gone, the air is cool, you can find many more thermal features because of the steam plumes that you can't see in the summer. Its easy to get a hotel room in the park.

One caution, bring coats. We didn't bring heavy coats when we went in September and we actually needed them. It did snow on us, a bit.

You may be able to find an instructor down at Jackson, right at the base of the Tetons. Definitely a most beautiful place to fly. My wife and I flew up last August for our Anniversary. Just as we were heading into the park from Jackson we saw Old Faithful erupting out in the distance.

Disclaimer: You must have mountain flying experience or training to do it safely. High DAs, big rocks and narrow passes. I'm guessing that's why you're asking about CFIs.
 
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I second the Jackson comment..... Not that I am biased.:cheerswine:

September is great for fall colors... it usually peaks around the 15-25 or so. Most years a light dusting of snow on the mountain tops too.. A magical time of year here in Paradise. 172 rental here in Jackson, CFI if you want one too. I am always game for a lap around jellystone in a plane if you want a guide/ co pilot/ keep you safe kinda thing.... Pm me if you need further details. You might even talk me into giving you a ride in a real STOL plane too.

Ben.
www.haaspowerair.com
 
Great time of year! It will frost most nights so early morning departures can be a problem. We're planning a trip the end of June. If you want wild flowers June is the best. But it frosts then too.
 
Take a jacket. Great time to visit the park.
 
To everyone- thanks much!

AlaskaFlyer- Thanks for the links! Right now, I'm thinking maybe just past Labor day weekend.

COFlyBoy- my only experience with anything approaching a mountain was a trip to KAPA (Centennial, by Denver) a couple of years back. The big signs said density altitude was some number greater than 7000'. I saw that I had to lean on the ground for best power and I did take more runway to lift off. Yes, that's one reason for looking for a CFI.

Ben- I'll likely get back to you when I get the schedule firmed up.

I found I could figure out where critters tend to hang out- I just look for geotagged pictures with bears and what-not on the flickr.com map. I realize Yellowstone isn't a zoo and will give the critters their space.
 
COFlyBoy- my only experience with anything approaching a mountain was a trip to KAPA (Centennial, by Denver) a couple of years back. The big signs said density altitude was some number greater than 7000'. I saw that I had to lean on the ground for best power and I did take more runway to lift off. Yes, that's one reason for looking for a CFI.

Our digital DA signs at the runway entrances are cool, eh? ;) You'll also hear, "Check Density Altitude" right after the temperatures on the ATIS on warm days.

Just remember the signs are not official, you still have to do your own takeoff DA and distance calculations.

If you want/need some Denver area CFI names/numbers, I can toss you a PM. For non-mountain, high-altitude operations, the majority of them will spend an hour on the ground with you crunching takeoff and landing numbers and calculating your own DA numbers from your POH. Show up prepared to do the math, and it's a no-brainer.

The flying will just be leaning procedures and a few landings to get used to the higher groundspeed while trusting your airspeed indicator isn't broken. ;)

Being CFIs with that "engine failure always happens when I'm aboard" gene in their DNA, they'll probably throw that in for fun so you get a feel for the glide speed and how it looks with the higher groundspeed in the thinner air.

More advanced Mountain Flying techniques are typically done in courses or seminars or a longer 1/2 day or full-day flights with a CFI and include some mountain airports. Besides more DA calculations, emphasis is on how to do safe(r) ridge crossings, particular quirks of some airports (one-way operations, where everyone flies in each valley to avoid mid-airs, airports with "blind" approaches, using Flight Service RCOs for checkpoint reporting on VFR flight plans, deeper dives into engine and aircraft performance, how to extrapolate when the DA is literally off the top of older POH charts, where to find lift via orographic lifting of air and learning to visualize where turbulent air will likely be downwind of large granite "clouds", identification of lenticular and rotor clouds, choosing a go/stop point on the runway for aborting a takeoff just like the pros do for every takeoff, etc.

Scheduling a day to fly one of these can be tricky, since there's a number of scenarios where even well-practiced mountain pilots will cancel. Early morning departures when the air is typically cold and calm are common. High winds aloft will mean turbulence, and 15-20 knots at peak tops is typically a no-go for most everyone. High temperatures can also dictate a no-go for anything normally-aspirated and a long-hard thought in anything turbo/supercharged.

In general...

The takeoff roll will feel "too long" and the landing speed will feel "too fast" from your usual sight picture. Nail the airspeeds and whatever's going on outside the plexiglass will tend to take care of itself. ;)

The tendency is to want to horse the aircraft off the ground before it's ready to go flying on takeoff, and to flare too high thinking you need to bleed off more speed/energy than you really have left. Especially on a hot day when the DA can be over 9000' MSL.

Unless your aircraft calls them out as mandatory, flaps for takeoff at really high DA are often a detriment. They don't provide as much lift as they do drag, and when you're trying to accelerate, they're not helpful in this regard. My STOL kit is utterly useless at most paved mountain airports other than to increase my post-takeoff workload. Only good at fields where there's a good reason to lift off early and slog along trying to accelerate while cleaning up the aircraft.

During my takeoff from KLXV last summer, DA was approximately 12,000, and climb rate at Vy was about 300 ft/minute in a lightly loaded 182. Vx was required to clear the trees at the north end of the runway. We were within 1 degree F of the mandatory no-go limits on the Colorado Pilot's Assn Mountain Flying course, and the performance was appropriately "anemic". Chewed up around 3000' of runway for the takeoff and the aircraft seemed to take forever to accelerate.

Come on up. It's fun but study those performance charts!
 
During my takeoff from KLXV last summer, DA was approximately 12,000, and climb rate at Vy was about 300 ft/minute in a lightly loaded 182. Vx was required to clear the trees at the north end of the runway. We were within 1 degree F of the mandatory no-go limits on the Colorado Pilot's Assn Mountain Flying course, and the performance was appropriately "anemic". Chewed up around 3000' of runway for the takeoff and the aircraft seemed to take forever to accelerate.

Huh. You sure your engine's making full power (well, as full as it can up in the thin air)? How "lightly loaded" were you? I got off KLXV in 2000' with a slight tailwind (taking off downhill) - Maybe you were going the other way.

Also, ol' 71G managed 500 fpm up to 15,300' MSL (DA at that point would have been ~16,100) the next day. Or maybe I just caught a really big thermal. ;)

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I just reports 'em as I sees 'em. LOL.

Maybe I should have said, "medium-loaded", I guess? Two 200+ lb'ers in the front seats, 15 lbs of "whatever" junk in the back seat and far back, and about 50-55 gallons of go juice, if I remember correctly.

We launched out of KFTG that morning with full long-range tanks, so whatever we'd burnt down after KFTG-K20V-KGWS-KASE-KLXV. We were 80 on board with 75 usable, departing KFTG when we left in the nice cool early morning.

I knew intimately what we burnt that day, and sticked tanks at KASE and KLXV, but didn't stick at K20V or KGWS since those were full-stop, turn around and depart immediately, but I don't remember now what it was at KLXV. I was curious about the fuel-burn at the higher altitudes. It matched our usual experience with the aircraft... 13 GPH down low properly leaned, to about 11 GPH at altitude, super-consistent even between pilots with slightly different leaning procedures. Not that there's many options in a carb O-470.

Now that I think about it, probably someone with the short-range tanks would say that 50-55 gallons was "heavy" loaded. ;)

I think the CFI lied about his weight too, or just hadn't gotten on a scale in 20 years. LOL! If we'd departed KAPA I would have made him stand on the scale in the hangar. ;-)

I'll go look for the TOLD sheet. I think I might have kept that one... Probably stashed in the front cover of the CPA book...

Back to your questions, uphill. Yes. North departure. Go/stop point was basically just before the terminal building. Wind was out of the Northwest that day.

I assume by downhill, you took off southbound, which is nice, since the terrain slopes away, but there's almost always a wind-generated "bump or two" over that treeline to the south. Kinda rare to get wind that cooperates with south departures at KLXV, though. Calm the day you were there?

Most folks get bumped around on arrival, landing to the north, since the prevailing winds are from the northwest. The trees on the left and the little plateau there make for a great "short-final bump generator".

I distinctly remember the CFI pointing out that there's a gap in the treeline northbound, if you turn about 10 degrees left after departure, and that he'd had to use it before... he joked, "You don't need to aim AT the trees straight off the runway, it's better to aim for that hole BETWEEN them, right there," as he pointed to the left a little as it passed my side window.

He said if you have to go through that gap in the trees, you very VERY gingerly continue the turn to downwind to go downhill toward Buena Vista. If you're climbing that weakly, that'd need to be a nice slow easy shallow turn... while you work on pulling the seat cushion out of your butt from just passing between the trees.

We cleared 'em by quite a bit that day, but he was just pointing out that he'd had to go through that treeline instead of over it, at least once. (I got the impression it was more than once.)

As for the VSI, we probably caught a "downer" in the bumps over the trees there, and that's when I looked. I don't remember it ever being very good in the afternoon heat all the way back to KFTG, though. Downhill in the downwind, as the terrain slowly descended and we slowly climbed, was nice. I recall thinking that we had finally made it above TPA abeam the numbers downwind.

The wind was medium-strong out of the West, but standing on the ramp it wasn't too bad that day. Light turbulence during the departure from the trees and terrain, and little bumps all the way back to Denver in the afternoon heat.

One of the funnest days in my logbook, for sure.
 
Maybe I should have said, "medium-loaded", I guess? Two 200+ lb'ers in the front seats, 15 lbs of "whatever" junk in the back seat and far back, and about 50-55 gallons of go juice, if I remember correctly.

Okay. On departure from Leadville we had about 400 pounds of meat in the front seats (me and Sheri - Did you meet her at OSH?) and a whole bunch of crap in the back seat and baggage compartment (my stuff, her stuff, video stuff, oxygen tank, yadda yadda...) but somewhat less than full fuel - We had fueled up at Delta and then flew over Aspen en route to Leadville.

For the 500 fpm thing, subtract Sheri (100lb or less, she's tiny) and her stuff (she's an FA as well as a pilot, so she knows how to pack light); keep me and all my stuff, and add full fuel back in - It was on the climb-out from KFTG. So, a fairly similar weight in both cases, and probably about 2700±50.

Oh, and yes we do have long-range tanks. 84 gallons, 79 usable.

I was curious about the fuel-burn at the higher altitudes. It matched our usual experience with the aircraft... 13 GPH down low properly leaned, to about 11 GPH at altitude, super-consistent even between pilots with slightly different leaning procedures. Not that there's many options in a carb O-470.

I wish we'd had the JPI then. Fuel burn on the 17,500 leg was pretty much indistinguishable from any other leg because of all the extra fuel burned to get up there in the first place! Would have been nice to see what I was burning both in climb and cruise. It was an interesting exercise, but it turned out to really not be worth the climb - At WOT I was pulling a whopping 12" of MP and truing in the 100-105 KTAS range, and the tailwind merely brought me up to a normal cruising groundspeed. LOL

I assume by downhill, you took off southbound, which is nice, since the terrain slopes away, but there's almost always a wind-generated "bump or two" over that treeline to the south. Kinda rare to get wind that cooperates with south departures at KLXV, though. Calm the day you were there?

Just about. There was about a 3-knot tailwind departing to the south, which I figure was pretty well cancelled out by the slight downhill slope of the runway. There certainly is some weirdness just to the south there, I kept her climbing at "best effort" until we turned towards the northeast - We followed the road out of Leadville through Fremont Pass to the reservoir at Frisco, and then US 6 through Loveland Pass and finally I-70 into Denver where we landed at KAPA and had dinner with Mari. After dinner, we made the hop over to KFTG.

Most folks get bumped around on arrival, landing to the north, since the prevailing winds are from the northwest. The trees on the left and the little plateau there make for a great "short-final bump generator".

Yup. We landed north, departed south.

One of the funnest days in my logbook, for sure.

Definitely! We started that day at Bryce Canyon, and that is THE best day of flying I've ever had, and probably ever will - It would be tough to eclipse. And I knew it, too... As we were slowly descending along I-70 on the way into Denver at dusk, watching all the taillights of the poor ground-pounders returning from their weekends in the mountains, I was grinning so wide I could have swallowed an ear, and I turned to Sheri and said, "That was the best damn day of flying anyone's ever had." :)
 
I guess I probably shouldn't point out to you 182 drivers that I climbed out of LXV at ~ 1,000 fpm one warm July morning in the turboDakota (before it became Frankenkota), so I won't point it out.:wink2:

I should go back there to see what it'll do now...:D

I had more than enough of that underpowered, NA aircraft when learning to fly at BJC with ~450# of student & CFI in a 4,000+ engine hour 160 hp 172. Yup, I learned alot. Nope I don't particularly like several of the things I learned on some of the hotter afternoons...
 
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I guess I probably shouldn't point out to you 182 drivers that I climbed out of LXV at ~ 1,000 fpm one warm July morning in the turboDakota (before it became Frankenkota), so I won't point it out.:wink2:

I should go back there to see what it'll do now...:D

I had more than enough of that underpowered, NA aircraft when learning to fly at BJC with ~450# of student & CFI in a 4,000+ engine hour 160 hp 172. Yup, I learned alot. Nope I don't particularly like several of the things I learned on some of the hotter afternoons...

Let's go. I want to see what it'll do too! :)

Flight of two to LXV after this blasted Spring wind dies down.

Will you give me a head start? ;) I'm sure you cruise faster than I do.
 
Nope I don't particularly like several of the things I learned on some of the hotter afternoons...
I did some flight instruction out of KBJC in a C-152 years ago. I'm not a whole FAA person and none of my students were huge but it was definitely interesting, especially since it was during the warmer months. The students really learned airspeed control during the climb or they wouldn't be climbing. I'm glad that I went back to mapping and that virtually all of my mountain time is in turbocharged airplanes.
 
Let's go. I want to see what it'll do too! :)

Flight of two to LXV after this blasted Spring wind dies down.

Will you give me a head start? ;) I'm sure you cruise faster than I do.

Cruise speed variability is one of the nice things about the 'kota. I could pace a 152 and the fuel burn would be down near the Cezzna's. But I normally plan to cruise at about 130 true on about 10 gallons an hour. I can usually get the actual burn a bit lower but those are my planning numbers.


As for LXV, I'll jus' cheat a little: min fuel and gear - not my usual top 'er off and carry tools, oil, cleaning supplies, chocks, jumper battery, etc.
 
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