Would training in an LSA make you a better pilot?

N918KT

N918KT

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As you may know, flying an LSA takes much less control movements and the LSA is lighter, and thus subjected to more effects of winds.

Would training in an LSA make you a better pilot? If so, do you think all pilots should start their training in an LSA (if there is one around nearby their location) so that when they transition to traditional GA aircraft, it will be easy?
 
Why does it take less control movements?


Compared to what?
 
JoseCuervo said:
Why does it take less control movements?


Compared to what?
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Because LSAs are lighter than GA airplanes, it would take little adjustments to the controls during flight, and the controls feels lighter too.

I am comparing it to traditional GA airplanes.
 
I started training years and years ago on European ultralights which are pretty close to LSAs, only lighter (450kg MTOW). They are different, and I would say more demanding to fly than an average GA plane. GA planes are alot easier to trim and cruise in, and are much more forgiving on landings.

I wouldn't say you will become a better pilot if you train in them. If you jump from an LSA to a 172, you will overcorrect it all the time and end up jumping up and down in it because the style you fly them is different.
 
Not sure about LSA, but from everything I have read and been told learning to fly a tailwheel will improve your stick and rudder skills a lot. As for a better pilot, it seems to me that stick and rudder skills are just one part, albeit an important part, of being a better pilot.
 
Weight is only one of many factors that affect how an aircraft behaves, and what kind of skills it builds in a pilot. I think it would be silly to say that an LSA, just because it's an LSA, would make a better pilot.
 
Gliders, tailwheel, heavy aircraft. They all make you a better pilot if you fly them often enough.

Best idea yet? Learn in a motor glider, or an LSA tailwheel like the Texas Cub.
 
No.

You should go the most direct route to get your PPL and then get a tail wheel endorsement and instrument to become the best pilot you can become. If you want more you can become a glider pilot as well.

I would do LSA only if it had significant cost advantage but they are so expensive that they rent for as much or more as typical trainers negating any benefits of using them.



N918KT said:
As you may know, flying an LSA takes much less control movements and the LSA is lighter, and thus subjected to more effects of winds.

Would training in an LSA make you a better pilot? If so, do you think all pilots should start their training in an LSA (if there is one around nearby their location) so that when they transition to traditional GA aircraft, it will be easy?
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douglas393 said:
Not sure about LSA, but from everything I have read and been told learning to fly a tailwheel will improve your stick and rudder skills a lot. As for a better pilot, it seems to me that stick and rudder skills are just one part, albeit an important part, of being a better pilot.
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Yes Douglas, I already know that learning to fly tailwheel has some challenges that would benefit a pilot like stick and rudder skills, but I thought LSA has its own challenges different or similar from the tailwheel that would benefit the pilot's flying skills as well.
 
Sigh... Stick and rudder skills are 10% of being a "good pilot" if that. Understanding your energy, the weather, the machine's capabilities, your surroundings, and being able to factor those all together and make good decissions no matter what happens with any of those factors. That is ADM and that is 90% of what being a pilot is about, and it doesn't matter if you're in an Ultralight or A380.
 
Nope, it's an airplane. The more planes I fly the more I see they are more alike than not

To expand on it, what is an LSA?
Low stall speed won't make you'd better pilot
Lack of a 3rd + seat won't make you a better pilot
Not going faster than 120kts won't make you a better pilot
Fixed pitch props don't make better pilots
Fixed gear doesn't make better pilots
Nothing magic about being 1320 or lighter either

Some planes that happen to be LSA might turn out better sticks than the guy who snuck by in a 172 but being LSA is not the reason.

I could just as easily make the argument that LSAs turn out inferior pilots because they only experience a much more limited range of different weight conditions compared to what you can show a student in a larger plane. It would be just as valid as your premise...
 
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I think there needs to be a distinction made between being a good Pilot and learning to fly, which is only on part of being a Pilot. From what I've read, the two very best things for learning to fly are glider lessons and flying basic stick and rudder aircraft like a Cub. LSA or not, I would think the more basic the aircraft, the better flying foundation.
 
Flying makes you a better pilot. Whatever machine you choose, fly it often and learn what your own limitations are. Understanding those limitations makes you a better pilot.
 
:eek:
Tony_Scarpelli said:
No.

You should go the most direct route to get your PPL and then get a tail wheel endorsement and instrument to become the best pilot you can become. If you want more you can become a glider pilot as well.

I would do LSA only if it had significant cost advantage but they are so expensive that they rent for as much or more as typical trainers negating any benefits of using them.
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Flying different aircraft or different sizes and categories will make you a better aviator.
 
As others have stated, ADM plays a bigger role in "Being a better pilot" than stick and rudder skills. You can learn ADM skills but only actual flying experience will sharpen those skills. Flying multiple types will help sharpen all your skills.

That being said, training in an LSA definitely won't hurt your stick and rudder skills. Learning in LSA types with lighter wing loading, lower control forces, and better takeoff and climbout performance than most GA trainers can improve your aircraft handling. Plus some have more advanced panels and avionics than the old steam gauge spam cans.

I've instructed in LSAs , GA trainers and turbine high performance aircraft. It's been my experience that pilots who learned on LSA types have a much easier time transitioning to heavier aircraft than the other way around.

They aren't for everybody and conventional gear training would probably have more benefit, but don't blow off the LSA because of a few nay sayers.
 
maddog52 said:
They aren't for everybody and conventional gear training would probably have more benefit, but don't blow off the LSA because of a few nay sayers.
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Two minor details, LSA is our young man's heaviest option, and there is no prohibition on conventional gear for LSA so it's not necessarily an 'or' issue.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
No.

You should go the most direct route to get your PPL and then get a tail wheel endorsement ...
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If you want to fly a tailwheel, start with a tailwheel. They are asy to learn from scratch, but for some reason, appears to be difficult to make the transition from a nosewheel.

But, if you had to be a "better" pilot to fly a tailwheel airplane, then I would be screwed (I drive a tailwheel LSA)
 
Henning said:
Sigh... Stick and rudder skills are 10% of being a "good pilot" if that. Understanding your energy, the weather, the machine's capabilities, your surroundings, and being able to factor those all together and make good decissions no matter what happens with any of those factors. That is ADM and that is 90% of what being a pilot is about, and it doesn't matter if you're in an Ultralight or A380.
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:yeahthat:
Absolutely; it's an attitude.
Everything that LSAs, taildraggers, or gliders can teach you can also be learned in the typical Cessna/Piper/other trainer that most of us have flown.

Good control input habits or energy management might be a little more critical in, say, gliders, but again, these things can be demonstrated with anything that flies.

Indirectly, though, trying your hand at something more "bare bones" might enhance that command capability, only because it can keep the avenues of learning open.

No matter what they learned in or what they fly, the worst pilots are the ones who think they are done learning when they get that rating they're after, or that review has to be a dreary chore, not a fun challenge.

Same applies to other challenges, like the instrument rating- there are good IFR pilots and bad IFR pilots; having that ticket doesn't mean you are somehow without flaw as a pilot.
 
N918KT said:
Because LSAs are lighter than GA airplanes, it would take little adjustments to the controls during flight, and the controls feels lighter too...
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I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion, but it's not the case.

Response rates depend of the authority of the aerodynamic control surfaces and the moment of inertia in each axis. Typical aerobatic planes are heavier than LSAs, but can achieve much faster rates, especially in roll.

The FAA requires training in LSAs for Sport Pilots because their lighter wing loading, or fewer pounds per square foot of wing area, and resultant lower stall speeds, can make them more subject to wind, especially crosswinds on landing. This might be the one area in which they'd force you to become more skilled.
 
So many questions, so little time.
I will tell you this: whatever teaches Rudder Authority.
Rudder Authority is what is missing from modern trainers.
Made to operate efficiently with little pilot input to the rudder, initial student pilot trainees don't get the rudder feel, or Rudder Authority that comes natural in a tailwheel.
This means "pilot" as in steering a ship: control of direction. Simply.
All the other stuff, like navigating, decision making, etc., are encompassed in a better word: Aviator ...
 
A loaded question.

I trained in, passed my pp checkride in, and fly a CTSW. Did I have to work harder than someone training in a 152? I believe so. I was told early-on by a Light Sport DPE that a CTSW was a poor trainer and that everyone he had tested in one either failed or barely passed. I did better than "barely pass" my pp checkride.

OTOH, am I a better pilot than my instructor, who flies left-seat in 737's for a living and got me through my checkride in the CTSW? Never. He's forgot more about flying than I'll ever learn.
 
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I learned in a LSA and got my SP cert in one. I have just over 300 hours and most of them are in LSA's. With that said, flying a Cessna seems a lot easier to me now. As others have mentioned the lower weight and issues related to winds in the end game can make LSA's challenging. I went to Alaska and took a bush pilot class in a Piper Tri-Pacer converted back to tailwheel. It was awesome and I found the Piper much easier to land that my LSA. Obviously it is a different mission and landing on those bush tires makes it easier but I landed on a gravel bar with only about 2 hours in type. Obviously I had a CFI with me but he was hands off for that landing except after landing helping me with tailwheel as I was still getting used to that piece.

Bottom line is that I have seen some higher hours PP's flying LSA's with issues on landings. I have seen some guys who are commercial pilots who hop in and have no issues with LSA's.

Carl
 
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Flying the lsa will usually make you better on landings, I like LSAs ,they are a lot of fun .But I like flying anything with wings and a motor.
 
frfly172 said:
Flying the lsa will usually make you better on landings.
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Only in LSAs lol. When you get into a heavier cumbersome airplane it can work to your detriment because you need to be doing things far in advance of where you would in an LSA. If you are tuned to the immediate reaction of an LSA, you will likely do poorly when checking yourself out in an Air Tractor.
 
It's simply not true that LSAs in general require less control input and/or less control force. Some are light on controls, but not all. As for the amount of input, once you start coming to crosswind limits, you'll see as much control input as in any Cessna 172.

A few people commonly mean "CT" when they mean LSA, same way "a Cessna" means a basic single for laymen.
 
no.

A poor attitude for learning and or poor instruction makes you a bad pilot regardless of what you fly.

Good learning attitudes coupled with good instruction make you a good pilot regardless of what you fly.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Just curious, what's the background on your comment re a "CT"? For that matter, what's a "CT"?
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The CT line is the market leader of S-LSA and is the epytome of expensive plastic LSAs. When Kevin is talking about light control forces, he's clearly referring to CTSW, CTLS, and its closest competitors (which are pretty far behind in the fleet numbers).

The other such a big block of similar S-LSAs would be Cub clones, epitomised by Carbon Cub.

The OP was around for a while and IIRC it may be his 3rd or 4th year working on SP. I know him from SportPilot Talk and here. Watching his evolution I cannot help projecting my own issues when I asked myself what would make me a better pilot, better stick-and-rudder man, or even a better aviator. In the end I figured that ... there is no shortcut. It's just flying and learning, as much as you can. I think now that it makes very little difference if it's tailwheel, LSA, or what.
 
zaitcev said:
The CT line is the market leader of S-LSA and is the epytome of expensive plastic LSAs. When Kevin is talking about light control forces, he's clearly referring to CTSW, CTLS, and its closest competitors (which are pretty far behind in the fleet numbers).

The other such a big block of similar S-LSAs would be Cub clones, epitomised by Carbon Cub.

The OP was around for a while and IIRC it may be his 3rd or 4th year working on SP. I know him from SportPilot Talk and here. Watching his evolution I cannot help projecting my own issues when I asked myself what would make me a better pilot, better stick-and-rudder man, or even a better aviator. In the end I figured that ... there is no shortcut. It's just flying and learning, as much as you can. I think now that it makes very little difference if it's tailwheel, LSA, or what.
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Hey Pete. Sorry, I guess I meant to say some but not all SLSAs have sensitive flight controls. I know the Evektor Sporstar MAX I have been training in this past summer (and also the Evektor Harmony for one day) both have flight controls forces that are in my opinion, similar to a Cessna 152. They are not too sensitive but responsive enough to feel like a slightly heavier airplane.
 
It may be true that a guy who has flown nothing but a Cherokee might be a bit challenged the first time he jumps into a CT but the same is true about the CT pilot jumping into a Cherokee. He's not going to be the master of it just because he's used to a light squirrely airplane. There's a lot more to it than that.
 
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