Worth pushing forward with training as a young woman?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Tatiana Jennys, Sep 16, 2021.

  1. A Martin

    A Martin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    .

    I type this slowly and carefully and try to choose the best words I can
    My motive is to educate and bring reality into the discussion.

    I am male , white skin , nice looking , well dressed , live in the good side of town , rated commercial pilot , and have enjoyed many of life's pleasures and am thankful.

    But here is the thing .... I have had doors slammed in my face .... been turned down for jobs I was highly qualified for .... received poor service or no service in various places ... been jeered and mocked in business meetings ... have been treated like crap by police without having broken any laws .... on and on.

    Who do I blame ? ... nobody ... it is a simple fact of life that everybody encounters those same bumps and setbacks in careers and elsewhere.

    Society makes an error when blaming setbacks on race , skin color , or gender . "We White Guys" need to remind folks we go through those same things all the time.

    Then I became a sexist .... I owned a business that was male dominated , technical in nature , and hired local graduates .... then a woman applied for a job ... impressive resume ... took a chance and hired her ... cost me money , had to install a second bathroom and change area .... best decision I ever made .. I found that women can multi-task better than anyone ... teach a woman a protocol and she will follow it meticulously and dependably .... "men" always want to fix things that are not broken and change procedures ... I became a confirmed sexist and gender biased , over 30% of my staff are female .... our quality control is highest it has ever been.

    Played the race card too .... I found workers from the Caribbean Islands and other less advantaged countries possessed talents not found locally .... they came from a background where they could not throw money or technology at a problem ... they had to solve issues standing on their own feet .... once exposed to our abundant resources they thrive and prosper and problem solve better than anyone . I hire nearly every applicant.

    Apologies to all the "white men " whom I did not hire .... not to fear .... I know you can handle it .... life is like that and you accept it as such. We have been doing it silently and for a long time . Nobody can beat us at that.

    .
     
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  2. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Today in the airlines, just being a woman will get you a job.

    Don’t mean to sound sexist, just telling it like it is.
     
  3. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Lat time Mrs. Steingar was hospitalized all the doctors were women and the nurses were men.
     
  4. falconkidding

    falconkidding Line Up and Wait

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    Flying is one of those careers thats sorta immune to any sort of hardcore glass ceilings. Partially due to union and being seniority based. Get to a regional youll get captain just as soon as the dudes in your newhire, check your boxes dont burn bridges and lccs and majors will call soon enough.

    You'll be treated just like any other pilot except most will probably be a little more professional or business with you vs with another guy.
     
  5. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What if you didn't want to train as a young woman? o_O
     
  6. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Pattern Altitude

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    She was at Western Global. They make Atlas look like a country club. She took the video down, but not sure exactly why.

    And your buddy at Atlas gets 14 days off a month. If he's gone more than that it's by his choice.

    UPS and FedEx love to hire Atlas pilots. It's a means to an end, and pays better than a regional. You also get a paid ticket to and from work, and you don't need a crash pad.
     
  7. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well 14 days home to me is hardly ever home. It would be like being in the military again. But I understand that’s expected in that line of work.
     
  8. Kristin

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    I have been in the industry for 40 years. Much as changed in attitudes. Loving to fly is the key. If you love it, you will be good at it because you will work at it. If you are good at it, you will be respected. You will probably run into a jerk now and then, but that is true in any industry. The most chauvinistic person I ever worked with was a woman.

    One word of advice about men, however. Expect some ribbing and rib back. Guys rib each other all the time. If they don't rib you a bit, they don't like you. If you want to know the sociological underpinnings of all that, read Dr. Deborah Tannen's book: You Just Don't Understand.
     
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  9. Everskyward

    Everskyward Experimenter PoA Supporter

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    This. It was especially true in days past. Unfortunately, now many men are afraid to do it until they are absolutely sure how you are going to take it which creates barriers in its own way.
     
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  10. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    The problem isn't necessarily the 14 days, it's 17 days in a row that you're gone. That's not gonna work for a large number of people, at least those with any kind of family at home. Glad it's fine for some, though.
     
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  11. Kristin

    Kristin Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    It took me awhile to mature enough to laugh at myself. When I did, I found self-deprecating humor went a long way.
     
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  12. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I keep hearing that but it is still competitive at the majors. Just had a friend not get the offer from a major. College, multiple types and current wide body FO. Airline hiring is fickle… As you already know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  13. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Pattern Altitude

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    I'm a successful corporate pilot and business owner. I happen to be a female. I could go into a huge rant about my opinions but I will just say that I prefer to be treated as an equal, a pilot, not a "female pilot". If you have specific questions you can PM me. This is a great career if you are happy with the lifestyle.
     
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  14. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Good for you. I love that attitude, but unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.
     
  15. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Pattern Altitude

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    What doesn’t work that way? It works if you’re willing to be an equal.
     
  16. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    The bigger picture. Unfortunately, airline hiring does look at gender and race. Again, I’m thrilled you and others have the mindset that you do.
     
  17. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I suspect she took that video down and decided to do something about what happened to her. If what she says is true, it is inexcusable.
     
  18. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    What was inexcusable? The vid I saw, she just simply stated she was exhausted with the schedule she was on. Some can live with being on the road a lot while a lot of us can’t stand it. I’m at the sim right now for only 3 days and I don’t even like that. To each his / her own.
     
  19. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It was not about being tired. From what I remember, it was allegedly classic misogynist and racial BS that should never happen to anyone in 2021.
     
  20. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Ok well I don’t remember her ever mentioning racism or sexism. An organizational culture and a horrible schedule is all I got out of it. She’s on to helicopters now so at least she’s seen the light.
     
  21. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It was pretty much all she talked about in that video, it's gone now.
     
  22. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Constant travel and new hotels all the time can be brutal. But that doesn’t mean it’s sexist or racist.

    I’m still back on why someone would even ask this question. Yes, you’re going to come across jerks in your life. We men do too. Push past them, go around them, or hitch up your pants/skirt and run over them.

    Just do it. You will lose out on more by questioning yourself than you ever will by being held back by others.
     
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  23. kath

    kath Administrator Management Council Member

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    You don't think it's worth asking "What is the culture like in <such-and-such> career?" before investing a lot in said career?
    I think it's a great question. With a diversity of interesting answers. Foreknowledge is power.
    It's one reason people lurk on these forums. To see who we are. To see who our future colleagues might be.
    So be nice. :)
     
  24. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    That wasn’t the question I heard. I heard “are men going to jerks and harass me”. The answer to that is, probably yes, in about the same ratio as it happens in the rest of your life. It isn’t like aviation is a different world.

    You would get the same answer if you asked “are computer programmers going to be sexist?” Retail managers? Restaurant servers? Yes some are going to be jerks because they are also people. So you push past them and do your job.
     
  25. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think it's worth asking. And it's important that a woman knows they don't have to put up with aholes telling them they don't belong in a job because they are a woman, or because of the color of their skin. Don't put up with that crap, don't try to get along, flip out and report it, if the guilty party gets fired, that's on them. Most companies treat this stuff seriously, if not, it's a crappy company.

    For the OP, fortunately most companies are great to work at, and most employees are not sociopaths and treat people with respect.
     
  26. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Yeah I agree. Unfortunately, there’s buttwipes in every industry and at every job, it’s just life. My cousin is a now retired (female) airline pilot and she definitely has some stories, but none of which are anything that wouldn’t be encountered in other industries. That said, Kath makes a good point. Do your homework ahead of time and learn about where you’re stepping into. Keep the chin high and go for it! I really hope our OP will find the encouragement she needs to make her goals a reality! :)
     
  27. OneCharlieTango

    OneCharlieTango Pre-takeoff checklist

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    “Is it worth pushing forward as a young woman?” is a pretty emotionally loaded question. Let’s break it down, in reverse:
    Woman: will you face sexism? Yes. Of course. Do you think there’s some field where you wouldn’t? Are you the type of person who’s spring loaded to see sexism everywhere?

    Young: will you face ageism? Yes. Of course. They’ll call you young and wet behind the ears for what seems like a long time. Then, for a short interval, no one will mention your age. Then you’ll be old and in the way.

    Pushing forward: here’s the actual crux. How hard can you push? $75000 worth of educational debt? How much time are you willing to spend in the right seat of a clapped-out 172 or, worse, an owner-student’s SR22? Are you willing to paint houses or wait tables while waiting for the next downturn to resolve? Then, once you’ve “arrived,” how long will you be satisfied sitting reserve in a New Jersey crash pad, while your family lives life at home? And, speaking of family, make sure your career plans and your social plans are compatible.

    Good luck, whatever you decide.
     
  28. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As a guy, I wouldn't consider it valid for me to assume that I know what challenges women face in various careers, nor to assume that I know whether it's the same in every career.
     
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  29. Kristin

    Kristin Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Let's see: You tell the OP that she will face sexism wherever she goes and then suggest that maybe there is something wrong with her if she sees sexism everywhere? Really!?
     
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  30. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Pattern Altitude

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    Unfortunately, airlines are looking for diversity and especially with United's new very public goal... we may see under qualified women fill seats that men should have occupied because of their skills/qualifications. IMO it's a step backwards, but that's for another thread (that I've posted in both here and on APC). The airlines should have the same % of women as there are in the pilot pool in general


    Women will find sexism, sure. I'm the sole female of a 15 person department but my colleagues are all professional and treat me as an equal.

    If you don't want to be away from home for days/weeks, then this may not be the career for you unless you can find a lucrative CFI position or fly medevac out of your home base. That goes for men, too.
     
  31. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude

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    How about this. No “ribbing”. Do your job. Male or female. Depending where you are in the food chain expect the appropriate training to help you succeed.

    Is that difficult?
     
  32. Kristin

    Kristin Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    The airlines have hired "under qualified" men as well. And what constitutes "qualified" changes dramatically when based on supply and demand for pilots at any one time.
     
  33. Kristin

    Kristin Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Very sterile as it isn't how humans interact. So you suggest that humans should work together and limit themselves to the bare minimum of communication necessary to do the job? In an airline context, there would be a lot of silence on the CVR, save for reading checklists and making call outs.
     
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  34. ShaneFalco

    ShaneFalco Filing Flight Plan

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    There are lots of side arguments going on, so I will reply directly to your question, with a few questions:
    1. Is this your dream?
    2. Do you want it more than you’ve ever wanted anything else, from a career perspective?
    3. Are you willing to put in the work?

    These are the only questions that matter. It’s not like you’re breaking any barriers, many thousands of women who have gone before you have already done that. By the time you get anywhere close to being a captain, there will be thousands more.
    So this isn’t about the system anymore, it’s about YOU. If your answer to the three questions is “yes” than you have no excuse to not pursue your dream.
     
  35. Piperonca

    Piperonca Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    I think y'all scared OP off.