Will Obama be the end of General aviation

And that's why I am an aopa member. That and I got a free headset bag when I joined.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

nddons said:
Which is why I laugh when some people here get on their high horses and vow not to continue to belong to the AOPA or the EAA, because they are funding executives salaries, are being too political, aren't focusing on homebuilders, their magazines aren't focusing enough on Cherokee 140s and Cessna 152s, etc. etc. etc.

Each day we fly is a do or die day for GA, and unless PoA can garner half a million members, and political clout (Scott M's elected library board membership notwithstanding), I think we should put on our big boy pilot pants, and support the only organizations that are fighting on our behalf.
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except AOPA's great idea to save aviation and get more pilots was to raise their dues and fund a study on why people quit during primary training.

Really?

We need a group with action. "we are going to push for change x and policy y." Both AOPA and EAA have lost that drive. Maybe POA is the answer. At least here, we have a free group of a lot of pilots.

But my point is that if we don't overhaul the requirements to get the initial PPL, we are screwed. Even if its some form of graduated license...something new and easier must be done.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

when thinking about our government, remember you can't clear the water, until you get the pigs out of the creek.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

nddons said:
I think we should put on our big boy pilot pants, and support the only organizations that are fighting on our behalf.
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I'll support an organization that is effective fighting on our behalf.

AOPA ain't it.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Bob Noel said:
I'll support an organization that is effective fighting on our behalf.

AOPA ain't it.
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Well who else is doing so? EAA? I guess so, but it seems like with much less gusto:

http://www.eaa.org/govt/

AOPA isn't perfect, but I don't see this type of activity occuring in any other aviation organization:

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/capitolhill/112thcaphill1.html

Of course, only about 10,000 of the 400,000 AOPA members support the AOPA PAC. If only 10,000 pilots give a damn, then I guess we deserve what we get.

I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dell30rb said:
And that's why I am an aopa member. That and I got a free headset bag when I joined.
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I have been a member for years but am not yet a pilot... That Damn hat is what got me in :D (I am aware that it would have been cheaper just to purchase the item :D)
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

nddons said:
Of course, only about 10,000 of the 400,000 AOPA members support the AOPA PAC. If only 10,000 pilots give a damn, then I guess we deserve what we get.
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There are better measures of "giving a damn" than seeing who gives money to the AOPA PAC.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

nddons said:
Well who else is doing so? EAA? I guess so, but it seems like with much less gusto:

http://www.eaa.org/govt/

AOPA isn't perfect, but I don't see this type of activity occuring in any other aviation organization:

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/capitolhill/112thcaphill1.html

Of course, only about 10,000 of the 400,000 AOPA members support the AOPA PAC. If only 10,000 pilots give a damn, then I guess we deserve what we get.

I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
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Nothing like showing the world that GA isn't a luxury by having Harrison Ford tell it. :mad2:
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

hindsight2020 said:
I don't look at my airplane as an investment. It's a gratuitous expenditure. One that doesn't save me money but saves me time (which is much more valuable to me than money) and an activity that I enjoy more than driving. I'm sure the possibility of getting priced out of GA is always looming, until then I'll continue to enjoy the privilege of flying, which in instances means going cheap on maintenance, certainly affording much less plane that I would want, playing Bill Clinton about a few interpretations of a few regulations, staying out of sight and not volunteering information to anybody. *uck it, live a little. Last time I checked the American Spirit didn't revolve around obedient unwavering compliance. If you ain't cheating you ain't tryin' :wink2:
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Ok- I don't own an airplane because the expenses now are going to be very small compared to what they will be. The expenses in question aren't maintainance. I'll let someone else keep the airplane-shaped piece of aluminum when most of us get priced out of it.

There are probably others who see it as I do. Unless someone wants to fly as a career, the threat of user fees won't encourage new pilot starts either.
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Cap'n Jack said:
Ok- I don't own an airplane because the expenses now are going to be very small compared to what they will be. The expenses in question aren't maintainance. I'll let someone else keep the airplane-shaped piece of aluminum when most of us get priced out of it.

There are probably others who see it as I do. Unless someone wants to fly as a career, the threat of user fees won't encourage new pilot starts either.
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Unfortunately I have to agree with this.:mad:
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

nddons said:
Well who else is doing so? EAA? I guess so, but it seems like with much less gusto:

http://www.eaa.org/govt/

AOPA isn't perfect, but I don't see this type of activity occuring in any other aviation organization:

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/capitolhill/112thcaphill1.html

Of course, only about 10,000 of the 400,000 AOPA members support the AOPA PAC. If only 10,000 pilots give a damn, then I guess we deserve what we get.

I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
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What does AOPA use that money for? Its not pitching a great new idea to the FAA to generate new pilots and keep old ones. Its marketing to its members to get more money.

Why perpetuate it?

Tell me the last thing AOPA took a hard stance on.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

For those who think the government/Obummer/FAA or any one else is killing the aviation industry. Think about this, If you came upon a cow that your buddy shot in the head, and it was lying there kicking and you cut its throat, who killed it?
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Cap'n Jack said:
And a freedom almost unique in the whole world. Another generation or two, other unique freedoms will disappear and the USA will be....just another country.

One reason I don't own a plane? I consider it a bad investment - one of these admistrations will implement user fees and/or invite the TSA to the GA side and make a small plane too expensive and/or onerous to fly and I'll br left with metal at a fraction of the price I paid for it. If this plan is implemented, only the top 1% will be able to afford flying other than taking the airlines.
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You have not looked at the other side. If they do the user fee it will finish off already hurting companies ( will take away private jobs but gain government jobs, imagine that) That will lead to the possibility of aircraft going up in value since there will not be any news ones to buy. People will still fly but it will go to mostly business use only and little to no recreational aviation
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

dennyleeb said:
You have not looked at the other side. If they do the user fee it will finish off already hurting companies ( will take away private jobs but gain government jobs, imagine that) That will lead to the possibility of aircraft going up in value since there will not be any news ones to buy. People will still fly but it will go to mostly business use only and little to no recreational aviation
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Actually, I used "investment" as a colloquialism rather than in the more proper economic or business usage of the term. This doen't take anything away from your analysis except that only those planes that may be used for business may appreciate. A non-FIKI C-150 isn't useful for most business travel, for example. The picture you paint still isn't pretty though.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Cap'n Jack said:
Actually, I used "investment" as a colloquialism rather than in the more proper economic or business usage of the term. This doen't take anything away from your analysis except that only those planes that may be used for business may appreciate. A non-FIKI C-150 isn't useful for most business travel, for example. The picture you paint still isn't pretty though.
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not really trying to paint a picture, and according to EAA it is for all planes in controlled airspace (including pistons) They did not clarify if class E is controlled

"We have concluded that a $100 per flight user fee is an equitable way for those who benefit to bear the cost of this essential service," Hyde said in reference to air traffic services, including piston-powered aircraft in controlled airspace.

Just look what Obama's crew done in chicago if you need a picture painted. Google (Meigs Field) Obama calls Richard M Daley his "mentor"
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

So, would that mean, If I rent out of a Class D airport, I gotta pay $100 immediately simply because I talked to tower? (assuming Class E is not considered to be controlled)
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Nobody knows what it means, and nobody will until the legislation is written, passes, and gets translated into FAA policy.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

TMetzinger said:
Nobody knows what it means, and nobody will until the legislation is written, passes, and gets translated into FAA policy.
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the getting it passed thing is a bit confusing
aopa says he does not have to get it "passed" EAA says he does
 
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

ajstoner21 said:
So, would that mean, If I rent out of a Class D airport, I gotta pay $100 immediately simply because I talked to tower? (assuming Class E is not considered to be controlled)
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thats is if class E is not and by the sound of it yes, you would have to pay, sounds like $100 for leaving, if you land and come back is it another hundred?
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

either we stay with our socialist system of public airports, operated with public funds or we move to the right, a free market system of all privatized pay as you go airports. . I wish some of you would make up your mind. Do you hate socialism and want user fee's. Or you like our current socialist system of public airports? Dave
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Socialism for pilots, free market for art museums.:wink2: Just wait until they tell people they have to choose between collecting SS or paying user fees.:rofl:
Ddayle said:
either we stay with our socialist system of public airports, operated with public funds or we move to the right, a free market system of all privatized pay as you go airports. . I wish some of you would make up your mind. Do you hate socialism and want user fee's. Or you like our current socialist system of public airports? Dave
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ddayle said:
either we stay with our socialist system of public airports, operated with public funds or we move to the right, a free market system of all privatized pay as you go airports. . I wish some of you would make up your mind. Do you hate socialism and want user fee's. Or you like our current socialist system of public airports? Dave
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What? Borderline non-coherent

You do realize they do not plan on getting rid of fuel tax. The user fee they are talking about is just a tax. No additional services. It is targeted tax of the so called "rich"
 
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We ALREADY PAY FOR the system, damn it. It's called fuel taxes. It's a working, equitable system.

Why does this falsehood that the system isn't being paid for ALREADY by the users, continue to persist?

If the amount of fuel taxes needs to change then pass a real FAA authorization/funding bill and DO it already.

It's been more than a decade since Congress started making Continuing Resolutions the way to fund the FAA, which is not how it's supposed to work.

They don't want to make tough calls, define a real budget, or tick off their Union donors by raising fuel taxes across the board.

It's easier to blame the budget shortfall on the system users, act like the system was never paid for, and set up toll booths. (How is there a budget shortfall caused supposedly by GA, when GA is contracting? Isn't that cute?)

I've not met anyone in GA not willing to pay their share at the pump. If we're switching to direct services billing, drop the $2/gallon or more that's going to the government with each gallon of 100LL pumped.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ddayle said:
either we stay with our socialist system of public airports, operated with public funds or we move to the right, a free market system of all privatized pay as you go airports. . I wish some of you would make up your mind. Do you hate socialism and want user fee's. Or you like our current socialist system of public airports? Dave
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Public access doesn't mean public funded. Prior to the Great Depression airports were entirely privately funded.

Quite a few publicly owned airports are self-funded to a great extent, via usage fees and aviation fuel taxes. I believe municipalities are loathe to subsidize airports from general funds. (Last I checked the local airports weren't making tiedowns and hangars available for free or at less than cost.)

So I don't think there is any socialism at all in involved using the word as Marx or Lenin would understand it.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

last I heard most airport improvements w came with %50 matching FEDERAL funds. Dave
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ddayle said:
last I heard most airport improvements w came with %50 matching FEDERAL funds. Dave
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Those AIP funds are collected from the following sources:

• 7.5% ticket tax
• $3.60 flight segment tax
• 6.25% tax on cargo waybills
• 4.3 cents on commercial aviation fuel
• 19.3 cents on general aviation gasoline
• 21.8 cents on general aviation jet fuel
• $16.10 international arrival tax
• $16.10 international departure tax
• 7.5% “frequent flyer” award tax
• 7.5% ticket tax at rural airports
From:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40608.pdf

Traditionally, the revenue from those sources into the Federal trust fund exceeded the money being granted. Only since September 2001 has that situation reversed somewhat, though the balance was still positive as of 2009, according to the document I linked to.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Lincoln said government should provide those services and funding that business cannot & will not. IMHO airports are one of the things that should remain in the public sector. We have not Privatized anything that was not a taxpayer fiasco.Privatizing is just another failed Republican Idea that benefits the wealthy & costs the taxpayers. Dave
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ddayle said:
Lincoln said government should provide those services and funding that business cannot & will not. IMHO airports are one of the things that should remain in the public sector. We have not Privatized anything that was not a taxpayer fiasco.Privatizing is just another failed Republican Idea that benefits the wealthy & costs the taxpayers. Dave
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who on here even mentioned privatizing airports? We (I) just do not feel that another tax is a good idea.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Ddayle said:
Incoherent? No. you just don't like to hear the truth.
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No, incoherent
Have you even read this thread and what it is about? Have you read the aopa and EAA articles? My guess is no.... You just heard someone say something bad about Obama and came to his defense with a made up argument that is not even on topic.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

So gov't regulates the private sector out and provides a worse product at a higher price. Sorry no justification with that one. Everyone is just afraid of what the real cost of little airplane ATC service is and having to pay for it.
Ddayle said:
Lincoln said government should provide those services and funding that business cannot & will not. IMHO airports are one of the things that should remain in the public sector. We have not Privatized anything that was not a taxpayer fiasco.Privatizing is just another failed Republican Idea that benefits the wealthy & costs the taxpayers. Dave
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Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

Giving government more money to WASTE while incurring more, and more debt is DUMB. This will only go to pork barrel projects and social welfare progams like what happens to Social Security dollars. They'll steal from it, and write worthless IOU's.

If there are fees for ATC, I will minimize their use, as will most others.
 
Re: Will Obama kill general aviation

ClimbnSink said:
So gov't regulates the private sector out and provides a worse product at a higher price. Sorry no justification with that one. Everyone is just afraid of what the real cost of little airplane ATC service is and having to pay for it.
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It is not the "real" cost I am worried about. It is the attempt at wealth redisribution. He will do this just so he can tell people he is going after the rich. The money will go to fund anotother welfare project not aviation. What will be the cost to the American public with companies going out of business?
 
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