Why recreational pilots suck

[jspilot]

This thread is definately all over the place now but I'm a sucker so I'll chime in. The original thesis of the OP is kind of obvious- of course pilots flying for fun want to fly on nice days because those are the days when flying is fun!

If the original post was made out of a sense that these "sunny, clear and calm" pilots are a danger to themselves and others than I'm not sure how that statement can be made. Any self respecting pilot knows his or her limitations. I'd hope that same pilot adheres to those limitations.

I'd say I fall into the camp that would rather fly on nice days. Good example though is if I waited for a clear and calm day this winter and spring up here in the northeast I would probably have flown less than 5 times this entire year. I've flown many more days then that. Was I a hazard those times I flew when the weather was not perfect? Well I guess not since I'm posting this and all of the people who flew with me are still around.

We all have stories of taking off in calm winds only to return to gusty crosswinds. My last cross country involved this very scenario- took off wids were 6 knots only to return to 20 knots 50 degrees to the active runway. Sure I was hopping for calmer conditions and yes I'd say I was out of my comfort zone but I managed to get the plane down safely using the techniques I was taught.

I'll keep flying when the weather is nice and in my comfort zone. I think that's the safest way to fly. I don't need to prove anything to anyone- except for the DPE or the CFI on my review!

 

[GCA319]

It's all in what you're seeking.

I live and breathe flying, love it, live it, think about it constantly. I'm perfectly comfortable in making a turbulent approach to min's or near them, but not everyone is after the same experience.

I was going to go flying with my 172 partner the other day (I'm building an experimental RV9A) and there were about 3/8 mild gentle puffy clouds coming up overhead. He looked up, shook his head, and said "That doesn't look like fun. These days I fly for fun - if it ain't fun, I ain't flyin'."

Same guy, talking about crosswind landings as I was trying to talk him into doing them for practice in case it became real one day and he had to do it: "What happens if the wind is jacked up and you HAVE to land there in a crosswind?" "Screw that - I always have enough fuel to go somewhere with a good runway."

Same guy, talking about lowering ceilings when you might have to use an IFR approach (he's VFR only): "Screw that - I'm putting this thing down on a highway and talking to the first car that stops."

It's not for everybody.

 

[ChrisK]

I dunno. This is almost straight down the runway, and my instructor and I decided not to go. Like I said on the phone - we ABSOLUTELY could have gone today for IR training, and it ABSOLUTELY would not have been fun, and at my level of training it is quite possibly not productive.

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I have landed in winds with which I was not comfortable; however, I have grabbed an instructor and asked them to go with me to learn that I can do it and to correct what mistakes I made. I will still usually only fly on darn good days because I prefer to have a good time.

 

[Skylane81E]

I dunno. This is almost straight down the runway, and my instructor and I decided not to go. Like I said on the phone - we ABSOLUTELY could have gone today for IR training, and it ABSOLUTELY would not have been fun, and at my level of training it is quite possibly not productive.

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I have landed in winds with which I was not comfortable; however, I have grabbed an instructor and asked them to go with me to learn that I can do it and to correct what mistakes I made. I will still usually only fly on darn good days because I prefer to have a good time.

Wussy, POS, fair weather flyer!

Get out of MY sky!

 

[Texastaildragger]

I'll take a 20-25 knot crosswind any day over flying into or out of KADS. With all the students who can't speak English you would have to hold a gun on me

 

[JWhistler]

I don't think a pilot that lands with 25 knots straight down the runway is going to get any free drinks at the bar. Is that the kind of any weather "Badass" you're referring to?

Nope. Just saying, even "great" pilots, or those who think they are, are fallible. The danger is not so much in a pilot who knows his limitations as the pilot who believes his skill exceeds his limitations.

 

[Alexb2000]

Nope. Just saying, even "great" pilots, or those who think they are, are fallible. The danger is not so much in a pilot who knows his limitations as the pilot who believes his skill exceeds his limitations.

The counter point is personal limitations can easily become rationalizations.

By some of the logic suggested in this thread why not let everyone define their own personal limitations for their check ride also?

Mr. DPE I don't like stalls, crosswind landings, or short fields. I don't plan to ever get into that in my flying, so let's leave that to all those arrogant jerks who have the nerve to tell me it will make me safer.

We are talking about basic PPL PTS skills here.

 

[Ted]

Nope. Just saying, even "great" pilots, or those who think they are, are fallible. The danger is not so much in a pilot who knows his limitations as the pilot who believes his skill exceeds his limitations.

That's true, but it's also a danger if a pilot's limitations become easily exceeded. For example, one pilot I knew didn't like crosswind landings. He went flying, came back to find a 10-15 kt crosswind. No big deal.

He does three go-arounds and finally forces the thing on the ground, skidding the tires and leaving flat spots on them.

Understandably, at some point everyone's capabilities will be exceeded. But winds that are frequently occurring in nature should also be things that pilots can handle. It's kinda like driving New York and saying you don't like dealing with traffic lights.

 

[CT Arrow]

We all know from reading these boards that every pilot here is an absolute bad ass, so this is just a statement about recreational pilots in general.

In Texas I am based at a very busy GA airport, KADS. There are several schools on the field and many recreational pilots. I've noticed a trend that really bothers me, that is people only fly recreationally on calm, pleasant, beautiful, absolutely perfect mornings.

Such a Saturday morning and you'll be 10 back for departure.

BUT:

Same day except the wind is 20-25 nearly right down the runway... nobody

Same day with a 15 knot crosswind.... nobody

Same day with clouds and rain (no convection).... nobody

Night: students doing the minimum requirements or.... nobody

Almost all the traffic on the less than ideal days are professionals who have to fly in any flyable conditions.

If I am honest with myself I could easily fall into the same trap. The only difference for me is that I fly from place to place on a schedule and primarily for transportation. That adds just enough pressure that I find myself in many conditions that given the choice I would be tempted do something else with my day.

Somehow making pilots fly regularly in less than ideal conditions would be the easiest way to improve safety IMO.

What say you?

So Bad ass pilots who choose not to fly in windy conditions suck?

I don't consider myself a badass or risk taker in aviation. I fly regularly, (125+ hours a year) and in conditions you listed above. I also participate in WINGS seminars and do 2 IPC's a year. I absolutely believe in safety as the numbers prove otherwise. However......

There are days I could go for the "breakfast" run but honestly don't care to get beat up in 20-30 knots winds. I do fly for Biz and pleasure but pick my days. There are also times when I parked the plane and drove. It's all based on a multitude of factors that determine the final decision.

What it really sounds like your trying to say is to improve training; fly in more challenging conditions. I think it goes much further then that. But that's for a whole other discussuion....

 

[Alexb2000]

So Bad ass pilots who choose not to fly in windy conditions suck?

I don't consider myself a badass or risk taker in aviation. I fly regularly, (125+ hours a year) and in conditions you listed above. I also participate in WINGS seminars and do 2 IPC's a year. I absolutely believe in safety as the numbers prove otherwise. However......

There are days I could go for the "breakfast" run but honestly don't care to get beat up in 20-30 knots winds. I do fly for Biz and pleasure but pick my days. There are also times when I parked the plane and drove. It's all based on a multitude of factors that determine the final decision.

What it really sounds like your trying to say is to improve training; fly in more challenging conditions. I think it goes much further then that. But that's for a whole other discussuion....

Sounds like you're current and that's the whole point, but...

If you NEVER flew in even the mild conditions I suggested then would you be, could you be?

 

[JHW]

I don't think a pilot that lands with 25 knots straight down the runway is going to get any free drinks at the bar. Is that the kind of any weather "Badass" you're referring to?

When we use our airplane to take the kids to grandma's house, whether the winds are light & variable or 25G35 like last week, it's no more relevant to "free drinks at the bar" than mowing the yard or driving my volkswagon to the store. I apparently don't understand the mindset with which you approach flying. I would not be comfortable flying with someone who views aviation as an "adventure" to be celebrated.

 

[Alexb2000]

When we use our airplane to take the kids to grandma's house, whether the winds are light & variable or 25G35 like last week, it's no more relevant to "free drinks at the bar" than mowing the yard or driving my volkswagon to the store. I apparently don't understand the mindset with which you approach flying. I would not be comfortable flying with someone who views aviation as an "adventure" to be celebrated.

I believe you're taking that comment out of context. You flying in 25G35 being no more interesting than mowing the lawn (as it should be) is because you are current. It has nothing to do with "adventure" just the basic skills to fly in common weather. I did purposely word the topic in such a way to stir the pot, but there really isn't any radical statement here other than you sometimes have to fly in a little weather to maintain currency (although plenty are looking for one).

 

[hkyplr18]

25kts down the runway? 15kts xwind? That's a normal day here in Oklahoma!
I somewhat agree with the OP in the fact that if you don't get practice in higher wind conditions then you will not be worth a crap on the day you fly xcountry to Oklahoma and get caught landing in the high winds. As pilots, we need to keep ourselves proficient in weather conditions that can easily change by the minute. It is not fair to you or your pax if all you know how to do is fly in perfect conditions. I see it all the time when i watch transient aircraft land at our airport. Their xwind landing techniques are terrible, and they think just because the wind is blowing they need to land with tons of extra speed and power. When they use up all 5,000 ft of runway in their 172 it is completely apparent that they are not proficient in flying in higher winds. I completely agree that I would much rather fly on a nice day then a crap day, but we should spend a little time working in the abnormal stuff too so you're not a hazard to yourselves and others.

 

[Alexb2000]

25kts down the runway? 15kts xwind? That's a normal day here in Oklahoma!
I somewhat agree with the OP in the fact that if you don't get practice in higher wind conditions then you will not be worth a crap on the day you fly xcountry to Oklahoma and get caught landing in the high winds. As pilots, we need to keep ourselves proficient in weather conditions that can easily change by the minute. It is not fair to you or your pax if all you know how to do is fly in perfect conditions. I see it all the time when i watch transient aircraft land at our airport. Their xwind landing techniques are terrible, and they think just because the wind is blowing they need to land with tons of extra speed and power. When they use up all 5,000 ft of runway in their 172 it is completely apparent that they are not proficient in flying in higher winds. I completely agree that I would much rather fly on a nice day then a crap day, but we should spend a little time working in the abnormal stuff too so you're not a hazard to yourselves and others.

Thanks for the post. Exactly what I am talking about.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Thanks for the post. Exactly what I am talking about.

That and being #10 in line for departure.

 

[Palmpilot]

There probably needs to be some kind of balance between knowing one's limitations and staying within them, vs. challenging oneself enough to keep one's skill set from shrinking.

I've tended to be fairly adventurous in some cases, and too conservative in others. I suppose it's part of the process of learning when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I might be getting a little more conservative as I get older.

Not long ago, I wanted to reinstate my club currency in an Archer or an Arrow (I forget which), so I scheduled time with an instructor. When the day came, there was a very gusty crosswind. We went up anyway, and it was fun, but a lot of work. It wasn't pretty, but my instructor expressed satisfaction with how I handled it.

Today, on the other hand, I was thinking of flying over the hill to Half Moon Bay. There's no TAF there, but AWOS was reporting 17 gusting to 24 at 50 degrees to the runway, and the Weather Channel Web site was forecasting increasing winds until 4:00 or 5:00 PM. Not too bad, but when I looked at the TAF for nearby SFO, it was forecasting 30 gusting to 40. I decided to postpone the flight until tomorrow, because when the wind or the gusts get close to the stall speed of the airplane, I get worried.

 

[CT Arrow]

Sounds like you're current and that's the whole point, but...

If you NEVER flew in even the mild conditions I suggested then would you be, could you be?

Current and proficient is two different games! There is no one "One size fits all" solution for what you suggested. It is about developing an action plan a training plan that meets your needs, conditions you fly in and a whole host of others items including staying legal and safe. Some might cite what you listed as mild while others would never ever fly in those conditions. So do you think that everyone should be subjected to those condtions listed? Will that really make them better pilots? Where does it end or in this case, begin?

Your Mileage may vary......

 

[dell30rb]

I would not be comfortable flying with someone who views aviation as an "adventure" to be celebrated.

I flew 3 hours each way in a cub last weekend to go visit my parents. I had to deal with some weather and winds that challenged me. I call it an adventure. I celebrated too

There probably needs to be some kind of balance between knowing one's limitations and staying within them, vs. challenging oneself enough to keep one's skill set from shrinking.

I've tended to be fairly adventurous in some cases, and too conservative in others. I suppose it's part of the process of learning when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

Nicely worded

 

[flightwriter]

As a low-time (<200 hours) sport pilot, I'm probably among the absolute worst of those damned fair weather fliers. In fact, until recently I'd hesitate to launch at all on personal 'fun' flights if the wind was greater than 10 knots!

My personal limit was (finally) raised last month, when I arrived back to SAF following a cross-country fly-out to Raton with the reported winds from 230 at 26 knots, gusting to 31. Knowing full well how much higher those speeds were than the demonstrated maximum crosswind component for the Remos - nevermind my own limits - I told my passenger that I'd try ONE attempt at landing, but at the first sign of difficulty we'd be aborting and heading to AEG - even if we were still 20' off the ground when that happened. The tower controller seemed a bit reticent when he cleared me to land on 20, and provided me wind updates seemingly every 10 seconds.

My landing was perfect - seriously, the best one I've ever done. I'm certain that the winds were somewhat calmer over the numbers than what the weather station was reporting, but I still had almost full right aileron in as we touched down, right wheel first, tracking absolutely straight down the pavement.

While I'm in no hurry to seek out similar conditions again (the case could certainly be made that it was foolhardy for me to attempt the landing in the first place, based on my experience and comfort level) the experience did - finally - bump up my personal limits to a more workable number. I've since flown in steady 15-knot winds, including direct crosswinds (for practice) without a problem, and I feel more confident (but not overconfident) in my abilities.

So, while I certainly appreciate pilots who seek out perfectly calm and clear days to fly - and don't begrudge anyone who waits only for those kind of days - I will also attest to the need to occasionally step (just) outside your personal comfort level to maintain proficiency, and increase your skills.

 

[Alexb2000]

Rob-

Great story, way to go.

None of that sounded fool hardy to me, all I read was good ADM.

I bet that was a short roll out at KSAF.

 

[JHW]

I flew 3 hours each way in a cub last weekend to go visit my parents. I had to deal with some weather and winds that challenged me. I call it an adventure. I celebrated too

yeah, slow airplanes are a different kind of "fun". When we bought this last pawnee, in ontario, it took me 6 days to fly it home to kansas with a couple off-airport landings one for mechanical, one for weather. It was an "adventure" in the form of, how much aggravation can i take before taking the wings off and renting a ryder truck.

 

[flightwriter]

Rob-

Great story, way to go.

None of that sounded fool hardy to me, all I read was good ADM.

I bet that was a short roll out at KSAF.

LOL, thanks. And it was indeed a short rollout, even though I came in a bit faster and flatter (half flaps) than normal. We had to "pedal" pretty fast to get down to Gulf in time to turn off for the B1900 behind us.

We got bumped around pretty thoroughly for the two hour flight back from RTN, so I definitely felt some "get-home-itis" creeping in. I had to consciously waive off that impulse, though, and I was ready for the possibility of flying past SAF and heading down to Albuquerque. I also told my passenger that "this plane needs less than 1,000 feet to land, and we have 8,300' available. I don't care which 1,000 feet we use, as long as it's safe" - which turned out to be a non-issue.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I would not be comfortable flying with someone who views aviation as an "adventure" to be celebrated.

Funny. I would not want to fly with someone who views aviation as anything but an adventure.

The day flying becomes as mundane as mowing the lawn is the day I sell the plane.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Recreational pilots suck because:
1) they fly on their own dime;
2) go where they want, when they want (weather or lack of judgment permitting);
3) don't do it for a living;
4) can actually afford the plane they're in;
5) are actually attractive to women with any sense (assuming weight, diet, income, health and looks are all in order).... (yes, this post makes the sexist assumption the pilot is a man... but it applies MORE SO to any woman pilot)

 

[GCA319]

As a low-time (<200 hours) sport pilot, I'm probably among the absolute worst of those damned fair weather fliers. In fact, until recently I'd hesitate to launch at all on personal 'fun' flights if the wind was greater than 10 knots!

My personal limit was (finally) raised last month, when I arrived back to SAF following a cross-country fly-out to Raton with the reported winds from 230 at 26 knots, gusting to 31. Knowing full well how much higher those speeds were than the demonstrated maximum crosswind component for the Remos - nevermind my own limits - I told my passenger that I'd try ONE attempt at landing, but at the first sign of difficulty we'd be aborting and heading to AEG - even if we were still 20' off the ground when that happened. The tower controller seemed a bit reticent when he cleared me to land on 20, and provided me wind updates seemingly every 10 seconds.

My landing was perfect - seriously, the best one I've ever done. I'm certain that the winds were somewhat calmer over the numbers than what the weather station was reporting, but I still had almost full right aileron in as we touched down, right wheel first, tracking absolutely straight down the pavement.

While I'm in no hurry to seek out similar conditions again (the case could certainly be made that it was foolhardy for me to attempt the landing in the first place, based on my experience and comfort level) the experience did - finally - bump up my personal limits to a more workable number. I've since flown in steady 15-knot winds, including direct crosswinds (for practice) without a problem, and I feel more confident (but not overconfident) in my abilities.

So, while I certainly appreciate pilots who seek out perfectly calm and clear days to fly - and don't begrudge anyone who waits only for those kind of days - I will also attest to the need to occasionally step (just) outside your personal comfort level to maintain proficiency, and increase your skills.

I see nothing wrong with your plan. Mostly because you had a plan. It's not having an out combined with a lack of proficiency that causes perfectly good metal to be bent. Btw, I have some time in the very airplane you're speaking of and have found it to handle some pretty stiff crosswinds very nicely. In the Remos, ground handling is my biggest concern when it's real windy.

 

[DavidWhite]

Recreational pilots suck because:
1) they fly on their own dime;
2) go where they want, when they want (weather or lack of judgment permitting);
3) don't do it for a living;
4) can actually afford the plane they're in;
5) are actually attractive to women with any sense (assuming weight, diet, income, health and looks are all in order).... (yes, this post makes the sexist assumption the pilot is a man... but it applies MORE SO to any woman pilot)

 

[flightwriter]

I see nothing wrong with your plan. Mostly because you had a plan. It's not having an out combined with a lack of proficiency that causes perfectly good metal to be bent. Btw, I have some time in the very airplane you're speaking of and have found it to handle some pretty stiff crosswinds very nicely. In the Remos, ground handling is my biggest concern when it's real windy.

Thanks, and I agree completely about the ground handling in the Remos!