Why Radar

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by luvflyin, May 10, 2021.

  1. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why’s Radar Required for this Approach. Don’t make sense.

    upload_2021-5-10_16-1-26.png
     
  2. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I dunno. Flown that approach a bunch since it's my home drome. BLBBY is in the C, and crosses over the FAC for 35 into GRR.

    The probably don't want you and SWA748 to say hello. That would be my best guess.
     
  3. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  4. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    @RussR might have an answer as well.
     
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Is BLBBY in the GPS?
     
  6. John Collins

    John Collins En-Route

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    Jepp charts show Radar is required for procedure entry from enroute airways.
     
  7. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yup. Which is wrong as far as I can tell. I was thinking maybe it was on there just at ATC Request. But it doesn’t make sense Jepp would word it like that if so.
    upload_2021-5-10_17-51-55.png
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Can you show me a few. No pic needed, just the airport and the name of the Approach will do. I've never seen one before that had no apparent reason on the Chart
     
  9. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Yes it is in the GPS.
     
  10. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    So if JAKES wasn't on on airway, and it's only on the airway if you have RNAV/GPS, and BLBBY was the only IAF, RADAR wouldn't be required?
    (PMM 029 radial is unusable)
     
  11. labbadabba

    labbadabba Pattern Altitude

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    Kinda looks like an old NDB plate without the NDB
     
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    JAKES, BLBBY and BOHRR are all on Airways. UNSUN used to be, V510, but it’s gone.
     
  13. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I have never flown to BLBBY from an airway. Honestly, didn't even know it was on one since I'm always coming in from the NW when I take that approach. -D-> JAKES.GPS12
     
  14. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Interesting, the local approach I'm thinking of no longer says RADAR REQUIRED. Strange...
     
  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Which Approach is that? I'd like to look it up and see if I can find a history of it's Amendments?
     
  16. RussR

    RussR En-Route

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    I can't see a reason for the RADAR REQUIRED note. There are connections to the Low Enroute structure, lack of which used to be the trigger for that note, even for RNAV (GPS) procedures. That requirement for RNAV procedures went away a couple of years ago, but this procedure was published before then (2018), so it would have been under the old rules, but still should not have needed the note.

    The IFP Gateway has the source document, but it doesn't give any additional clues.

    https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp...9D9-NDBR/MI_9D9_RNAV (GPS) RWY 12, AMDT 2.pdf
     
  17. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah. I saw that. Sometimes you find an 8260-[some number] that has 'reasons' for things, like Chart Notes. I'd like to see that. I'm gonna do an inquiry on this one and see what I get.
     
  18. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    Only 'da FPT know. And, they have probably been disbanded.

    o_O

    9D9.jpg
     
  19. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    Here is a better copy in PDF of the complete coordination "F" file.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    "FTP" stands for? Flight test personnel?
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The plot thickens. Why it was ever NA from JAKES and BOHRR is a head scratcher. If it wasn’t Authorized from those fixes, then why were the even on the Chart. As supposedly Initial and Feeder segments. What is the FPT?

    EDIT: I’m sure the JAKES and BOHRR notes were the ‘airway radials CW from ### to ###’ things.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  22. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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  23. aterpster

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  24. AlphaMike

    AlphaMike Line Up and Wait

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    FPT. Functional Potential Threshold. And it appears that they reached it.
     
  25. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So it's wrong. They say ATC wanted it. Can't find out why. So, oh well. I think I remember something about FPT's. If I remember right they were local to ATC facilities like Tracons and Centers. A commitee of Controllers to evaluate how Instrument Procedures would affect them at that Facility.

    Your Aeronautical Inquiry has been closed. If you have followup questions or comments, please use the online inquiry form instead of sending via email.
    ========================================================
    FAA Response:
    Mr *******, I agree with your assessment on the RADAR Required note in the planview area on both of the RNAV procedures at 9D9. The note was added at the request of the Flight Procedures Team back in 2018 when the procedures were amended due to a construction project. The "why" was not captured but in these types of situations it is usually a the request of Air Traffic Control.
    ========================================================
    AI-201021
    Category: Procedure Design > US Terminal Procedures
    Airport: 9D9
    State: MI
    Procedure Name: RNAV (GPS) RWY 12
    Inquiry: The Chart has RADAR REQUIRED in Planview. There seems to be no reason for the this. There are three fixes that connect to the Enroute Structure. Two IAF's, JAKES and BLBBY and one Feeder, BOHRR. UNSUN does not but it appears that it used to via V510 which seems to no longer exist in that area. Jeppesen charts it as (For Procedure Entry from the Enroute Environment). The RNAV(GPS) RWY 30 also has RADAR REQUIRED. It connects to the Enroute Structure via the Feeder BOHRR. POSIE, an IAF is also shown, but the segment of V170 it is on is charted as 'unusable' on the L 28 Chart.
    ========================================================
    You may view your Aeronautical Inquiries online at https://nfdc.faa.gov
    Aeronautical Information Portal
    https://nfdc.faa.gov
     
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  26. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    Not the case in 2018. The FPT consisted of various FAA specialties at the three service areas; Western (Seattle), Central (Dallas), and Eastern (Atlanta). Monthly, each of these three FPTs met as the Regional Airspace Procedures Team (RAPT). I called in on the Western-Pacific and Northwestern Mountain RAPT conference calls each month for a few years (representing NBAA). They emailed an agenda in advance. The FAA members of the team were voting members. None of them were from ATC facilities. Often, a procedures specialist from an affected ATC facility would call in on an agenda item that involved his airspace. I don't recall one of them saying, "We want 'radar required' for the KABC RNAV 12." It seemed to me such notes were decided behind the scenes of the RAPT meeting. BTW, anyone with an aviation interest could call in on a RAPT meeting.
     
  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  28. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    The IAF is about tan miles away at the edge of bottom of the Grand Rapds airspace which has runways in the same direction. It looks to me like they want radar control to separate GranRapids flights from those on the ILS into Hastings.
     
  29. aterpster

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    They don't need a note on an approach chart to provide radar separation. That done in every metro area most of the time.
     
  30. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Well then look at KRBD that has its ILS right on line with the DFW jet traffic that comes in on the Cowboy parallel to it. It also indicates radar.
     
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It has Radar Required because there is no connection to the Enroute Structure.
     
  32. aterpster

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    No initial approach segment, either. Both FAA and Jepp say, "radar required for procedure entry."