Why is the Cirrus so dangerous?

IMO, the numerous non-pulls, many of which have been fatal, are more puzzling than the pulls. I have no proof, but strongly suspect that most of the non-pull pilots knew the chute was installed, knew the location of the handle, and didn't forget about it. In spite of that, they chose Option B.

SteveinNC said:
If you look at the 30-40 chute pulls and lives that were saved, I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that $9000 in flight training would have saved more lives. Just not true...or at least...impossible to "prove". I'm CERTAINLY not advocating AGAINST flight training...AND I agree that, in general, flight training is probably the single biggest thing you can do to improve your odds as a pilot. BUT...I really like having that chute. The parameters you're able to pull are pretty easy to stay within. To date...of the 30-40 pulls, there have only been 3 or so that were fatal due to pulling outside the envelope. Too low or way too fast.

As for spins...it's really kind of a silly argument about Cirrus's. It was just a business decision in the US...not to get the certification...instead they spent the money on the chute development. It doesn't mean it doesn't recover exactly the same way every other plane recovers...as proven in EASA certification.
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Actually I blame the training. When I got my PPL, no one ever discussed having a chute on an airplane. They always said, Best Glide find the best spot and land it.... and if its at night... Turn on your landing light... if you don't like what you see turn it off...

That's the problem. With over 150 hours in my SR 20 I will say that my military training is much better... Screw the equipment.. Save your life and your families life.. pull the damn chute.... Let the other insurance payers buy me another airplane...
 
@wayne - Agree it is puzzling, but I do agree with John

@John - I think there's much truth in this. It's Just people's awareness and comfort level. I was taking my IR oral exam and the DPE asked...what would you do if you're in IMC and you have a complete and total electrical failure. I said...pull the chute. She got a VERY pained expression and was disappointed it seemed. She just didn't realize that there is no Vacuum back up etc. and that in that scenario I'm in the clouds with no attitude instrumentation at all. So, she reluctantly agreed...pulling chute, only option.

I think people just have to have hard and fast rules. Mine are simple. If I can't make an airport, the chute gets pulled...and if I can't control the plane (IMC with no attitude reference)...shoot gets pulled.
 
jmp470 said:
Actually I blame the training. When I got my PPL, no one ever discussed having a chute on an airplane. They always said, Best Glide find the best spot and land it.... and if its at night... Turn on your landing light... if you don't like what you see turn it off...
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Maybe you are on to something. Most pilots learned without a chute and what did they tell you? Don't give up, fly it all the way through the crash. You need to be able to recover from that unusual attitude in the clouds because there is no other option. I think some pilots might tend to be overly optimistic that they can pull it out at the end on their own. The chute introduces another decision. I'm wondering if some people might feel that pulling is akin to giving up. The same psychology might be at work which causes people to press on instead of turning back.

Disclaimer: The closest I have been to a Cirrus is standing on the wing, looking into the cockpit.
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe you are on to something. Most pilots learned without a chute and what did they tell you? Don't give up, fly it all the way through the crash.
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That is a good point. The CAPS system is not just another section with information in the POH. If the training doesn't incorporate a thorough discussion of CAPS, you are left to decide for yourself when you would consider using it. Chute deployment scenarios should not be limited to the five items included in the POH nor should all of those scenarios instantly prompt you to pull the chute. The training makes a big difference. It is a safety culture, a way of operating, not just another system with a handle.
 
The trouble with the chute and spins is that I you don't pull it durng the incipient stage (like first 900ft or something) then you end up outside of the parachute envelope. Who wants to give up during the first rotation with plenty of altitude still? But if you don't.. good luck getting out of it without a tail-chute.

<---<^>--->
 
p1l0t,
I understand your thought process... but disagree... again... screw the airplane, screw saving it... If you didn't make a mistake, you wouldn't have to worry about it. However, if you enter a spin... you made a mistake (Unless you are flying in a plane designed for it).
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe you are on to something. Most pilots learned without a chute and what did they tell you? Don't give up, fly it all the way through the crash. You need to be able to recover from that unusual attitude in the clouds because there is no other option. I think some pilots might tend to be overly optimistic that they can pull it out at the end on their own. The chute introduces another decision. I'm wondering if some people might feel that pulling is akin to giving up. The same psychology might be at work which causes people to press on instead of turning back.

Disclaimer: The closest I have been to a Cirrus is standing on the wing, looking into the cockpit.
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I think this is worth looking into with further consideration.
 
jmp470 said:
p1l0t,
I understand your thought process... but disagree... again... screw the airplane, screw saving it... If you didn't make a mistake, you wouldn't have to worry about it. However, if you enter a spin... you made a mistake (Unless you are flying in a plane designed for it).
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Disagree on this one...if it's one turn, Recover IMMEDIATELY. If you enter 2 turns, pull the chute.
 
p1l0t said:
The trouble with the chute and spins is that I you don't pull it durng the incipient stage (like first 900ft or something) then you end up outside of the parachute envelope.
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News to me - you sure about this? Just how fast do you think a Cirrus would be moving in a spin? Keep in mind that if wings are stalled (as they are in a spin,) that means the angle of attack is large, so the wings are producing a lot of drag. Overspeed can happen in spin recovery, or a spiral, so maybe one of those conditions is what you are thinking of?
 
Do you really think this is a practical answer for a pilot who has never experienced so much as a complete stall recovery, let alone any spin training?

Jaybird180 said:
Disagree on this one...if it's one turn, Recover IMMEDIATELY. If you enter 2 turns, pull the chute.
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Jim Logajan said:
News to me - you sure about this? Just how fast do you think a Cirrus would be moving in a spin? Keep in mind that if wings are stalled (as they are in a spin,) that means the angle of attack is large, so the wings are producing a lot of drag. Overspeed can happen in spin recovery, or a spiral, so maybe one of those conditions is what you are thinking of?
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<---<^>--->
 
Yes, it is in the POH that the chute must be pulled within ~900ft or something.

<---<^>--->
 
p1l0t said:
Yes, it is in the POH that the chute must be pulled within ~900ft or something.

<---<^>--->
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Perhaps you are thinking of this quote from the SR20 POH/Information Manual:
"The minimum demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS deployment from a one-turn spin is 920 feet. Activation at higher altitudes provides enhanced safety margins for parachute recoveries. Do not waste time and altitude trying to recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS."
​
The only limitation they list regarding maximum speed is 135 KIAS. But in another document here it indicates at least one known successful deployment at up to 168 KIAS. There was at least one deployment from 528 feet AGL after 3 spins in which 3 of the 4 people on board survived.
 
Yup...the parameters to pull the chute are 133 KIAS or below and at least 500 ft AGL
 
135kts really limits the chute's ability to save someone who has gone VFR into IMC. Most likely they are going to enter a spiral dive and that speed will be exceeded pretty quickly in a fast plane like the cirrus.

I still think the chute is useful and a great thing to have. Just curious, what scenario's do they teach in the cirrus training program for chute pulls?

I'd pull it if;

Engine failure in IMC with low cloud base
Engine failure over very hostile terrain, or over water
Major Structural or Control failure (hopefully i could somehow slow it down to under 135kts)
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe you are on to something. Most pilots learned without a chute and what did they tell you? Don't give up, fly it all the way through the crash. You need to be able to recover from that unusual attitude in the clouds because there is no other option. I think some pilots might tend to be overly optimistic that they can pull it out at the end on their own. The chute introduces another decision. I'm wondering if some people might feel that pulling is akin to giving up. The same psychology might be at work which causes people to press on instead of turning back.

Disclaimer: The closest I have been to a Cirrus is standing on the wing, looking into the cockpit.
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I think you are correct that "the chute introduces another decision". But if you think about it, why is that a bad thing? When I am flying the SR22 I usually fly, I have choices during an emergency that many people don't. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. I can recount or create a number of scenarios that pulling the chute was/would be the difference between walking away alive or being carted off in a meat wagon. Hostile terrain and midair collision are two scenarios. What about pilot disabled? Pilot has a heart attack and everybody onboard dies? My wife knows that if something happens to me: pull the power, pull the mixture, then pull the chute. Trust me, you don't want her trying to land. The chute, blue recovery button, and other features on a Cirrus are meant to enhance safety, not replace pilot training and good judgement.

Those opposed to gun control tout: guns don't kill, people kill. The Cirrus is designed to be a safer flying machine. If abused or misused it will bite you in the ass, just like anything else. By the way, thanks for your honest disclaimer that "the closest you have been to a Cirrus is standing on the wing looking into the cockpit". Those of us who fly them regularly appreciate the safety features. :)
 
Pa28-140 said:
I think you are correct that "the chute introduces another decision". But if you think about it, why is that a bad thing?
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It's not a bad thing, it just makes the decision more complex, especially if someone has not thought in advance about which conditions would need to exist before they pull it. I wonder how many non-pullers learned to fly airplanes without chutes compared to the ones who learned initially in a Cirrus.
 
dell30rb said:
135kts really limits the chute's ability to save someone who has gone VFR into IMC. Most likely they are going to enter a spiral dive and that speed will be exceeded pretty quickly in a fast plane like the cirrus.
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If they're in a spiral dive...it's not very likely they're going to make a nice gentle off airport landing anyway...right? Many chute pulls outside the parameters have been successful...so I'd say you still have one more option you don't have otherwise.
 
I'd rather have the chute as one last option than not have it.

Even though I would try other things first.

If you rip the wings off after a graveyard spiral, do you lose enough energy doing that to make a parachute deployment possible?
 
TMetzinger said:
I'd rather have the chute as one last option than not have it.

Even though I would try other things first.

If you rip the wings off after a graveyard spiral, do you lose enough energy doing that to make a parachute deployment possible?
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Probably not, lol. And if you got into a graveyard spiral the $9000 would have been better spent on an instrument rating.

<---<^>--->
 
Or a charter.

p1l0t said:
Probably not, lol. And if you got into a graveyard spiral the $9000 would have been better spent on an instrument rating.

<---<^>--->
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SteveinNC said:
Yup...the parameters to pull the chute are 133 KIAS or below and at least 500 ft AGL
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This CFI does a series of interesting test videos; this one is 'can you convert speed into altitude and hit 400' AGL to deploy CAPS if you lose the engine at 300' on departure'?

 
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