Why electric planes are inevitable

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by rwellner98, Sep 21, 2021.

  1. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Neither the government nor the private sector are perfect.
     
  2. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    2,894

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    Thanks. I appreciate that ...
     
  3. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    10,808
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Zippers?
     
  4. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    28,748
    Location:
    Land of Savages

    Display name:
    steingar
    Sorry, I couldn't get through all that. We may be able to climb out of this using biodiesel generating microbes. It is a long way from pie in this sky.
     
  5. GaryM

    GaryM Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    1,471
    Location:
    New Jersey (KMMU)

    Display name:
    Gary M
    Not all zippers; but airtight zippers were developed for space suits. The technology made it's way into drysuit zippers used for cold-water diving. I'm grateful for that, though it hurts to have to pay $400 for a zipper replacement when the one on my drysuit wears out (every 8-10 years, it seems).
     
    Palmpilot likes this.
  6. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,370
    Location:
    Nebraska

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    The road, GPS, and the internet are all "infrastructure" that allows those with money and imagination to build on them.
     
    Palmpilot and Echo419 like this.
  7. Echo419

    Echo419 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2020
    Messages:
    38

    Display name:
    Echo419
    The marginal cost of energy produced by solar and wind is near zero. Almost all of the cost is in manufacture and installation.
     
  8. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    8,681

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    And in sweeping the snow off acres of panels. And dust. And in replacing those smashed by hail. And in replacing the turbine blades as they fatigue and approach failure. And is the maintenance of both systems. They are not maintenance-free.

    Numerous solar fields and turbine installations have been removed as money-losers. It means that the cost of electricity has to go up. It also means that solar and wind, which are horribly intermittent, need conventional sources that can quickly take up the slack as the sun goes down or the sky clouds up or the wind stops or gets too strong. Or we need massive battery installations for which there isn't enough lithium on the planet. And we need to dedicate vast areas to these things: in the west, that means cutting down a lot of forest for access roads to turbines and for the powerline rights-of-way; Those things must be up high on hilltops to catch the wind; solar also needs clearcutting, or the loss of other land areas. The environmentalists will oppose every step of all of this, at the same time they're demanding green energy. We see it is BC where the proposal of one new hydroelectric dam creates enormous opposition and expense.

    All of this has been examined in great detail in reputable papers summarized on sites like https://wattsupwiththat.com/
     
  9. Echo419

    Echo419 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2020
    Messages:
    38

    Display name:
    Echo419
    I agree that maintenance costs exist, but especially for solar it's more of a fixed cost and not related to whether the solar panel is producing energy or not.

    And while there are projects that have failed, the vast majority have found profitability. Every industry has projects that fail or one reason or another. Wind is particularly mature reaching cost parity with gas and coal. There's still work to be done with solar. There's no one size fits all solution. Solar makes a lot of sense in the southwest, but less so in Minnesota. Intermittency is indeed a problem, but is an area of active research and effort. A world where 100% of energy coming from wind and solar will never exist, but I trust in human ingenuity to find a sustainable solution.
     
  10. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    New England

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Found profitability, mostly by selling carbon credits. Folks paying inflated rates for electricity cover those profits.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  11. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    10,396
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    Is the claim that the government funded the infrastructure of the internet? Because that’s hogwash.
     
  12. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    New England

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Come on Salty, everyone knows Al Gore invented the internet, he told us so. \
     
    NHWannabe likes this.
  13. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    But wait - put a second propeller on the plane, it will spin up as well. Double the propellers, you'll go twice as fast!

    [​IMG]


    Reminds me of a very nice, environmentally focused co worker years ago. She said she wanted to buy a hybrid car (not electric, no recharging) because she wanted to use an alternative energy source for driving. And then I had another co worker who wanted to buy an electric car, because she didn't want to spend money with a Oil/Energy company, and wanted to be 100% pollution free.
     
  14. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,370
    Location:
    Nebraska

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    The initial portion of it, yes. The protocols that we continue to use now, yes. ARPANET was started back in 1966 by DARPA (you know- military? part of the government?). They developed the Transmission Control Protocol (the TCP portion of TCP/IP) in the early 1970's. TCP/IP was the standard in the early 1980's on ARPANET. The National Science Foundation (again, part of the US government) implemented CSNET for computer science departments and universities to connect to the nascent network. ARPANET was decommissioned after ~1990 as private industry took over. DARPA also did work on an early version of hypertext transfer protocol (the HTTP that you used to see in browser windows). The US government did do the initial funding, research and development, and testing of the internet as we know it now.

    Likewise, many medicines are discovered because of government funding. The mRNA vaccine that is helping smart people avoid COVID infections received government grants:
    https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/...egion=us-east-1&originCreation=20210922173340 (see the acknowledgements).

    Few companies fund basic research anymore- there are very few Bell labs in existence anymore. Google is one that does basic research. Basic R&D costs a lot of money with uncertain returns on that investment. The US government has been funding a lot of R&D, and setting the stage for private companies to make the discoveries into something useful.
     
    Palmpilot likes this.
  15. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    10,396
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    None of your first paragraph is infrastructure.
     
  16. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    No he didn't.
     
  17. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    It depends on the meaning of “it”. And also there is “no controlling legal authority”. It’s all an inconvenient truth - we’ll be dead by 2020.
     
  18. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    2,894

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    Are you saying I can't believe my lying ears?

     
  19. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    New England

    Display name:
    PaulS
    LOL, from Snopes:

    "
    “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country’s economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.”

    In context, Gore’s response (which employed the word “created,” not “invented”) was clear in meaning:"

    Typical Snopes BS, created versus invented, lol, and people believe that crap snopes puts out.
     
  20. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Please do believe your ears! He did NOT say "invented." If you have to change his words to make your point, AND ignore the context, then you don't have a point to make.
     
  21. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    Besides creating the internet, he also took sniper fire when visiting Yugoslavia. And he won the Medal of Honor. And he voted against the Iraq war before he voted for it. And you can can keep your doctor while paying less
     
    Albany Tom and Doug Reid like this.
  22. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    New England

    Display name:
    PaulS
    invent
    [inˈvent]
    VERB
    1. create or design (something that has not existed before); be the originator of.
     
    3393RP likes this.
  23. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    2,894

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    Dude ... he is quoted in post # 59. He used the word "creating" as opposed to inventing. Is that what you are hanging on to? Are you in a river in Egypt?
     
    Bob Noel likes this.
  24. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    “I took the initiative in creating the internet”

    Al said he created the internet. He did not. You see “invented” as not the same as “created” and thus say that Al did not make that up / lie?
     
    Doug Reid likes this.
  25. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    962
    Location:
    North Carolina

    Display name:
    Doug Reid
    You forgot that the movie "Love Story" was written about him as well..:)
     
  26. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Definition of invent
    transitive verb

    1 : to produce (something, such as a useful device or process) for the first time through the use of the imagination or of ingenious thinking and experiment
    2 : to devise by thinking : fabricate
    3 archaic : find, discover

    Definition of create
    (Entry 1 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1 : to bring into existence
    //… God created the heaven and the earth. — Genesis 1:1 (King James Version)
    2a : to invest with a new form, office, or rank
    // She was created a lieutenant.
    b : to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior
    // Her arrival created a terrible fuss.
    // create new jobs
    3 : cause, occasion
    // Famine creates high food prices.
    4a : to produce through imaginative skill
    // create a painting
    b : design
    // creates dresses
     
  27. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Dude ... You're claiming that two words are synonymous regardless of context!
     
  28. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    2,894

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    Bob Noel likes this.
  29. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    How did I forget that ? BTW - he also produced and directed Ghost Busters.
     
  30. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    4,321

    Display name:
    Silvaire
    What he said was that he took the "initiative" in creating the internet meaning he voted for the bills that funded the creation of the internet. That's all he meant
     
  31. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    9669F0E8-0082-4276-8FE2-7CD78CA9959B.jpeg
     
    Stephen Poole likes this.
  32. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I also pay attention to context.

    You are ignoring the fact that "created" has meanings that "invented" does not, and you cut out part of the sentence to make your misinterpretation seem more plausible. The ACTUAL sentence was "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Yet, somehow, you conclude that he could ONLY have meant that he "invented" it, instead of referring to his role in Congress's support of its creation.

    Consider the fact that you're on the opposite side of this argument from Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf, who actually WERE involved in inventing the Internet. THEY don't think he was claiming he invented it:

     
  33. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
  34. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    18,346

    Display name:
    Bob Noel
    most definitely
     
  35. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,370
    Location:
    Nebraska

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    So, what point are you trying to make now? The communication protocols are a form on infrastructure, as far as I'm concerned. It allows data to be transmitted between different devices and different providers of data, in the same way a standard railroad gauge allows easier transportation across the country. Your comments don't change the fact that the government did the initial research, development, and initial construction of what is now the internet. however, if you don't like that use of "infrastructure", the government created NSFNET off of ARPA as I mentioned in an earlier post; restrictions to access NSFNET ended in 1991 allowing commercial access to the internet. This opening may be related to the High Performance Computing Act of 1991, authored by someone named Al Gore, but I don't know if that bill had anything to do with opening the internet to everyone. The internet went downhill from that date due to commercial activities, spam, and false information being posted.

    However, the government does still provide subsidies for the internet:
    https://www.rd.usda.gov/programs-services/all-programs/telecom-programs
     
    Palmpilot likes this.
  36. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    20,076
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    What do you call it when someone takes something out of context to support an unsound argument?
     
  37. GaryM

    GaryM Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    1,471
    Location:
    New Jersey (KMMU)

    Display name:
    Gary M
    The evening news?
     
  38. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,370
    Location:
    Nebraska

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    No, you don't need to cut down any forests. They must be almost gone by now, based on all the forest fires (I'm joking here, but I do wonder what happens to the burned areas- do they become prairie?). Who say you need to use lithium batteries? Your link is merely a aggregator, and doesn't list papers. It aggregates blogs, and has essays written by various people, but those aren't papers.
     
  39. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    New England

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Lol, I'm not going down this worm hole, Al said invented/created the internet, same thing, he said so as is posted here, period.

    Had he said " During my service in Congress I created, or supported legislation that led to the development of the internet" I would give him a pass, but he is a wordsmith, he knew exactly what he was saying, and said it clearly and succinctly. Snopes, try as it might, can't change that, neither can either one else.
     
    Daleandee likes this.
  40. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    2,894

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    You are playing "word police" to try and salvage a wrong. By definition Al was wrong misspoke as only the Creator has the power to create! So we are correct in stating that Al must have "invented" the internet.

    ... and I thank him for it! :happydance: