Why do they change clearances so much?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Salty, Nov 22, 2021.

  1. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    This is more of a rhetorical rant than a question, but anyway…

    I filed direct, got a clearance with three waypoints, after getting handed off to center they sent me direct destination before I’d hit the first waypoint, so I adjusted the flight plan, then after another handoff they added the same waypoints back to my clearance, so adjusted the flight plan again. Then, after only one waypoint, they started vectoring me the rest of the trip.

    At least I had something to do.
     
  2. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    They are just trying to keep everyone moving without violating separation.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Except none of it was more than a 10 degree turn. My heading barely changed at all, but I was editing flight plans over and over.
     
  4. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    Welcome to Florida. I have yet to be in the in the state when they haven't issued me an amended clearance. The last time I was there they even tried to amend my clearance when it was exactly the same as what they were giving everyone else. I swear it is compulsory for controllers down there to do this.

    In most of the country this isn't an issue.
     
  5. PastZTL

    PastZTL Pre-Flight

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    The computer processes your route as three phases: departure, enroute, and arrival. For departure, ERAM can apply an adapted departure route (ADR). It looks at aircraft type, requested altitude, and route of flight and applies an appropriate departure route. Similarly, ERAM applies an adapted arrival route (AAR) appropriate to your destination airport, aircraft type, and your arrival direction.

    If you're flying within the same enroute facility, ERAM should apply both in one flight data revision. Controller #2 was probably trying to be a nice person by giving you direct.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  6. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Oh crap. We aren't supposed to go nordo/7600 after getting the clearance we want? The things you learn.
     
  7. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    If every airplane stayed on the first route they got, no changes thereafter, how many planes planes do you think could be released into the air?
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    10 degree turn is going to be a 5 mile difference 30 miles down the road. 5 miles is basic separation minima for Centers. Preferable to a panic 90 degree turn 25 miles down the road.
     
  9. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    Maybe this should start being my selling point for living in Illinois, @Jim K

    “Illinois, where the politicians are crooks and the taxes suck, but you’ll get direct destination (nearly) every time!”
     
  10. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    I feel you. On the way back from Oshkosh I filed IFR from Dekalb IL to Sanford NC on foreflight. Chose a "recommended route", got the text the route had been approved, and even got the same route once in the air. Then 5 min later they come back with this huge list of new waypoints. They lost me about 3 into it they were talking so fast and wanted me to stay at 5000 ft when I had filed 17k. I just canceled IFR, climbed to 17.5 and went direct. Figured if I needed a clearance when I got home to land I would pick one up.
     
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  11. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    The vectors were close enough to direct that the difference wouldn’t help with separation. It had nothing to do with separation IMO.

    They wouldn’t amend your clearance for separation anyway. They’d vector you temporarily for that, which they did that also many times during this flight. But they wouldn’t amend your clearance and then amend it back again for every plane you need to avoid.
     
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Pretty much true most of the time.
     
  13. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Pre-takeoff checklist

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    @Grum.Man - likely around the ORD Bravo?
     
  14. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    When I fly into New York airspace I usually get at least three full route changes, one on the ground at clearance delivery, then one about 10 minutes into the flight, full reroute, at least 5 or 6 waypoints plus airways. Finally about 5 minutes later, another full route update. The variation in route is usually no more than a 10 or 15 mile offset. It's gotten to the point it's entertaining. Then they clear you so that you skip about half the waypoints they made you enter.

    Last flight I had just crossed over the sound and was over Long Island, the controller called me up and cleared me "direct Canada", I asked my wife what did he just say? She said "it sounded like Canada, but I don't know". So I called him up and said direct where? He came back with a lot of snark in his voice, and said "Cirrus 4xx, direct JFK, Ken - ned- eeee" So I keyed up, laughed, and said Oh Ken - ned- eee, Cirrus 4xx, direct JFK"
     
  15. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    No I would have been south of that the whole time.
     
  16. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    What I found flying Northeast out of Tampa I never seem to get the same routing twice so I just file direct and take what I get. I also file an even altitude (normally 8K) as that's what you fly North bound over the peninsula and that somewhere near Jax they are going to ask if I want to climb or descend to odd altitude (I normally go up to 9K). After the first fix they normally give me direct to destination without me even requesting it. Coming back from the Northeast it's without fail MONIA-OCF-V581-DADES (sometimes truncated to simply MONIA-DADES) with the reversed altitude assignment (initially even until around Jax then switched to odd Southbound over the Peninsula). Northwest it's different-- NITTS V7 CTY outbound (then AF which for me is direct destination) and reversed inbound.
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    It was the fact that they kept taking out and putting back in the exact same waypoints that I found odd. I get why clearances change, but not back and forth.
     
  18. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pattern Altitude

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    I leave the waypoints in my flight plan in case I need them later.

    It probably has to be a function of judgement calls by ATC vs reality, along with trying to help you out with a DTO destination.
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There's a thread on Facebook right now by a Florida pilot who say he filed KPMP direct X51. Filing acknowledged. But, he claims that instead of giving him a clearance with a different routing PMP tower told him his filing was no good and to refile with a fix.

    I'd never heard of this happening before. Local ATC rejecting a filed flight plan completely and insisting on filing a different one. Is this a thing?
     
  20. kaiser

    kaiser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There’s a trick for filing around ORD depending on which direction you’re headed. I think @Radar Contact would know them all. I know a couple but it’s basically filing via an outlying VOR - for your flight it might have been Joliet (JOT) or Peotone (EON), then you usually get direct after.

    Every time I fly IFR in south Texas I get a few reroutes. My favorite one from June where I was cleared direct, needed a few deviations for weather, then rerouted/direct dest 3x.
    F3141068-D458-4FEE-B75A-C1A5279CD55F.jpeg
     
  21. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    All I know is when I come from Michigan (like from Grand Rapids or Traverse City) back home to Peoria, I file through OXI because it keeps me out of the way of Chicago Approach. I just figure @Radar Contact doesn't want to talk to me. :(
     
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  22. Jim K

    Jim K Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I always just file direct and they reroute me as necessary. I've gotten "SHOOF" every time so far.
     
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  23. kaiser

    kaiser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I don’t know man… the closer one originates to Chicago, the wonkier the clearances get. I’ve tried to file KDPA SIMMN RFD KMSN only for the machine (and clearance delivery) to clear me towards Milwaukee (5-6 fixes) then BAE. The second I call Chicago departure in the air, they reroute me back over SIMMN RFD. Can’t fight the computer…
     
  24. Jim K

    Jim K Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Interesting. I suppose I'm far enough away they can just steer me away and forget about me. What I don't get is why the computer accepts my direct plan straight through the Bravo when that never actually happens.
     
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  25. IK04

    IK04 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Of all times for it to happen, during my airplane ATP checkride, my first instructions was a DME hold at a fix very close to the airport. In the two or so minutes after takeoff, that clearance changed three times to a hold at a fix, an intersection and finally a VORTAC.

    I was able to keep up with it all and still fly the plane, but the examiner was struggling to adjust his scenario for the rest of the ride.... It messed up his plan pretty good, but he came up with a new plan that got us away from the DFW class B (TCA back then) and we finished the ride quickly and got on the ground before it got really hot....
     
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  26. SethV

    SethV Pre-takeoff checklist

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    At least it was only 3 waypoints. Couple months ago i was departing Allentown PA. Longest clearance I have ever received...and I nailed the readback!

    cleared to KMCD via ETX V162 HAR V469 THS V474 IHD V119 BURGS V144 FWA V277 ELX V55 PMM V193 LORIW then Direct. Climb 3000 expect 8000 in 10 min. Departure 124.45 3017.

    After being handed to approach, I negotiated a route with 1 waypoint then direct. Of course I had the whole thing loaded just in case.
     
  27. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard En-Route

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    What is this “Direct destination” you speak of? Haha
     
  28. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    1. File what wou want.
    2. Fly what you get.
    3. Log what you need.
     
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  29. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Line Up and Wait

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    What I don’t get is when they amend your clearance to include a waypoint that you’re already going to go over.
    For instance, let’s say your flying an airway between two VORs and there’s a waypoint on the airway between them. I’ve gotten amended clearances where the only difference is adding in that waypoint. I totally don’t get that.
     
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  30. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    That’s essentially what happened on this flight also.
     
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  31. kaiser

    kaiser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That’s a new one for me. I’ve definitely been cleared SIDs and STARs waypoint by waypoint. Maybe they thought they were doing me a favor?
     
  32. PastZTL

    PastZTL Pre-Flight

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    When ERAM applies an adapted route, it looks at the current route,and if it doesn't match exactly, applies a pref route. So if your route contains a waypoint where a pref route starts, but is not explicitly in the route, ERAM will display the pref route starting with the waypoint and continuing to the destination. Most of the time controllers will recognize the duplication and click on the pref route to indicate it has been applied and not say anything to the aircraft. Occasionally the controller doesn't realize the match and you get that clearance.
     
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  33. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Honestly, I think "doing me a favor" is a lot of the answer here. I think they try to give you direct and then later someone else needs or wants the waypoints, or maybe they were still stuck in the system, so when switching, the new controller added them back.

    I know I like to add a waypoint when I fly to the keys to keep me over land a bit longer, and they are almost always very "helpful" at removing them and giving me direct somewhere along the trip and putting me out to sea.
     
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  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. When I was at ZLA that was a thang. There had been enough incidents when a Controller would misapply when not to issue the Preferential that the directive came out to issue it, no exceptions. Even if it was an exact duplicate. I hated it because I knew the pilot was up there goin WTF's wrong with this guy, don't he know what I got. I had me a little chat with a Sup over it once complete with a Record of Conversation.
     
  35. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard En-Route

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    I hate when they mess up good plans.

    I fly to SDM, Brown Field, San Diego, with some frequency.

    I file V66 to HAILE so as to line me up with the VOR-A approach.

    most often just before the Imperial VOR, I get LA Center giving me a reroute doing V317 to PGY instead of continuing to HAILE on V66. This happens more than 75% of the time, I would guess.

    If you’re at PGY you have no instrument options readily available. You now have to be vectored from there, and waste time.

    Last time, I simply asked: Has the ceiling at Brown improved enough to allow a visual? “Lance 817, standby……”

    Then they retracted the routing change……

    I felt like clicking the mic and saying: I knew what I was doing when I filed. But I kept that as my internal monologue.