Why can't private pilots fly for hire?

I'd further point out that the FAA recognizes your inherent right to kill yourself doing whatever you choose

That's not true, because the FAA does not recognize my inherent right for me to give a friend some cash for gas, so he can fly me somewhere without making a profit, and accept the risk that I am flying in a small plane with someone who just got there license.

I'd tell you to go back and do what you need to do in order to drop the GA death rate vs cars to 2:1 rather than 7:1, recognizing that flying will always have more risk than driving but I'm willing to be reasonable about the spread.

How would you do it?

I wouldn't. I am sure if you gave out a survey, and asked what's more dangerous, riding along in a small aircraft with a private pilot, or riding a motorcycle, you would get aircraft all day long as the one people chose.

No one thinks it safe. Everyone recognizes flying SWA is far safer then flying even with you in any GA aircraft.

The world does not need to be made safe. People just need to understand the risks in life they take, before they take them. This is why I would not allow a GA pilot to go into business without a comercial license. That would give a false impression that they know more then they do, or that somehow it's safer then it is.

But if my friend asks me if I can take him somewhere if he chips in for gas, I don't think he feels it's any safer then if I ask him if he wants to go skiing somewhere that I can fly both of us too.

One is legal, the other is not, and it makes no sense. The person assumes the same risk.
 
Mafoo, it may be "safe enough" but still not be safe.

Safe was a poor choice of words. Safe enough that the FAA says I can do it is what I mean.

Once I get my ticket, I can take my family, or any one I know up. Why are they less protected under the FAA then the general public?

I guess if it's just about safety, the FAA feels your fiends and family are just worth less then everyone else. :dunno:
 
Why are they less protected under the FAA then the general public?
Theoretically because they know you well enough to judge whether or not they want to get in an airplane with you.
 
The former is legitimate use of private aviation (common purpose). The other is a person trying to get a cheaper rate for the convenience of flying. If the person wants to take advantage of that he needs to get his PPL or hire a charter company. It is a clear distinction of use.

That is the reason I asked about how many want to get rid of common use. Apparently not many. For the most part I think it is a good rule.

BTW, The FAA does not mind if you kill just yourself in a plane. They get antsy when you drop all of that sheet metal into a school yard full of kids, or roll it up into a ball with a load of friends. Wayne is simply correct on this account.
 
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No one thinks it safe. Everyone recognizes flying SWA is far safer then flying even with you in any GA aircraft.

Statistically for SWA you're correct, I think they still hold a zero fatality rate for in air accidents but I'm don't agree with you in general that airliners are safer than small GA counterparts, given equivalent levels of pilot skill and attention to planning.

With relatively few exceptions, if you lose all your engines in an airliner, you aren't walking away from it. These things don't crash often but when they do, they normally take hundreds of people with them. Conversely, if I lose all my engines in my Arrow, I'm going to be able to make a survivable landing, probably without injuries, and possibly without significant damage to the plane since I've planned the route accordingly and have kept tabs on my options the entire trip. The vast majority of GA accidents and fatalities are due to pilot error and poor judgement, all which are avoidable, and not an intrinsic characteristic of GA flight as compared to commercial carriers.
 
Statistically for SWA you're correct, I think they still hold a zero fatality rate for in air accidents but I'm don't agree with you in general that airliners are safer than small GA counterparts, given equivalent levels of pilot skill and attention to planning.

With relatively few exceptions, if you lose all your engines in an airliner, you aren't walking away from it. These things don't crash often but when they do, they normally take hundreds of people with them. Conversely, if I lose all my engines in my Arrow, I'm going to be able to make a survivable landing, probably without injuries, and possibly without significant damage to the plane since I've planned the route accordingly and have kept tabs on my options the entire trip. The vast majority of GA accidents and fatalities are due to pilot error and poor judgement, all which are avoidable, and not an intrinsic characteristic of GA flight as compared to commercial carriers.

You suggesting that highly skilled pilots account for less then 1/6 of all the deaths in GA?
 
It is pilot skill and judgement or lack there of, we have been talking about. It is intrinsic of GA accident rates.

For me I will take my chances of losing all of the engines on a SWA airliner over losing all of the engines on an Arrow. That is just me.
 
BTW, The FAA does not mind if you kill just yourself in a plane. They get antsy when you drop all of that sheet metal into a school yard full of kids, or roll it up into a ball with a load of friends. Wayne is simply correct on this account.

That single reason (killing someone who didn't asume any risk) is why I think one should be required to go through all the training we do. I also think the cases when that happens is very low thanks to it.

But I am not a fan of a nanny state, and protecting me from my own choices, seems very nanny to me.
 
Actually Mafoo, as Wayne pointed out the training is minimal. The bar is set very low for the PPL. There is NO assumption of safety in being a PP. Just legality. Even the commercial is quite low. It is only when you get to flying passengers of the general public(135 and 121) does the FAA start taking training and experience even a little serious. Even the corporate pilot flying turbine equipment is controlled much more by insurance than the FAA.
The system is not perfect.
 
There is certainly wide agreement that distinguishing between commercial operations that hold out to the public and private operations under Part 91 is good public policy. The problem lies in the execution. The FAA has amassed rules that attempt to make that distinction with mental contortions of concepts like "passenger" and "compensation" in a way that egregiously and arbitrarily tramples on fundamental private property rights.

I have no objection to everything that comes into play under Part 119. That is not what this initiative is about. It is about overbearing regulators that arbitrarily map Part 119 concepts onto private operators who fly for private benefit without holding out to the public. Compensation and passengers should not be in the equation at all as these are nothing more than arbitrarily chosen proxies for the regulators' task of determining whether an operation is commercial or not. That is why I feel the only way we can realistically obtain any relief from the mountain of absurdities heaped upon us by the mullahs at the FAA is to deny them by statute the use of these two concepts to distinguish our private use of our property from commercial operations.
 
That is the reason I asked about how many want to get rid of common use. Apparently not many. For the most part I think it is a good rule.
I agree, and that is why I include it explicitly in the bill's draft.
 
You suggesting that highly skilled pilots account for less then 1/6 of all the deaths in GA?

I'm suggesting that the vast majority of all deaths in GA were due to unskilled, careless or reckless pilots. I couldn't come up with a statistic to quote but I'm sure it's a lot greater than 5/6. Let's just say that as I scan through the NTSB reports for GA accidents they tend to run a common theme - they were avoidable (I could have avoided the same.) I have to go through more than six at at time to point to one where I can say "no way out of that."
 
There is NO assumption of safety in being a PP. Just legality.

Come on, really? So all those times my CFI was showing me ways not to die, was just extra stuff that to get my PP, I didn't really need to worry about?

I get that the more you train, the better you are. And that a commercial pilot is far safer then someone with a PPL.

But to say there is no assumption of safety in being a PP, seems a little far fetched to me.

Why not just make the exam written then?
 
I think it's probably because they know that in most cases you have the hammer and the family will go along with whatever you decide. It's those that are a level removed that cause them heart-burn.

Theoretically because they know you well enough to judge whether or not they want to get in an airplane with you.
 
Proficiency and safety are not synonymous.

Come on, really? So all those times my CFI was showing me ways not to die, was just extra stuff that to get my PP, I didn't really need to worry about?

I get that the more you train, the better you are. And that a commercial pilot is far safer then someone with a PPL.

But to say there is no assumption of safety in being a PP, seems a little far fetched to me.

Why not just make the exam written then?
 
That is the reason I asked about how many want to get rid of common use. Apparently not many. For the most part I think it is a good rule.

Just to make sure we are talking the same thing... common use is only if I take money right?

If my friend wants to go somewhere, I can legally take him there, if I assume all the expense, right?

If that's not correct, then how can someone without a comercial license do Angel Flights, or Pilots for Paws?
 
Just to make sure we are talking the same thing... common use is only if I take money right?

If my friend wants to go somewhere, I can legally take him there, if I assume all the expense, right?

If that's not correct, then how can someone without a comercial license do Angel Flights, or Pilots for Paws?
Common purpose is the concept here. It means that the pilot has reason for going on the trip that is common to the passengers.

Flying for charity, political campaigns (why are we not surprised?), search and rescue, etc. are exempt from the compensation proscription by 14 CFR 61.113 (d) et seq.
 
Common purpose is the concept here. It means that the pilot has reason for going on the trip that is common to the passengers.

Flying for charity, political campaigns (why are we not surprised?), search and rescue, etc. are exempt from the compensation proscription by 14 CFR 61.113 (d) et seq.

When you maintain the common purpose clause you are not changing anything.
 
Common purpose is the concept here. It means that the pilot has reason for going on the trip that is common to the passengers.

Flying for charity, political campaigns (why are we not surprised?), search and rescue, etc. are exempt from the compensation proscription by 14 CFR 61.113 (d) et seq.

And to me, those exemptions tell me the law is there, not for the purpose of safety.

If I can fly a sick person I don't know to a hospital, but I can not fly my friend to the hospital, the law is wrong.
 
I doubt any airman has ever faced prosecution over accepting dinner for flying someone to dinner.

Unfortunately, my example was not random. It is specifically noted as compensation in a Chief Counsel interpertation to Mr Sommer. To see the letter, go here: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2010/Sommer.pdf

Or go here http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/Interpretations/, search for 61.113, then find the Sommer letter. I offer this link so you can read other 61.113 interpertations.
 
Unfortunately, my example was not random. It is specifically noted as compensation in a Chief Counsel interpertation to Mr Sommer. To see the letter, go here: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2010/Sommer.pdf

Or go here http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/Interpretations/, search for 61.113, then find the Sommer letter. I offer this link so you can read other 61.113 interpertations.

And also search on 61.118 because that was the numbering of the rule before 2005.
 
Actually Mafoo, as Wayne pointed out the training is minimal. The bar is set very low for the PPL. There is NO assumption of safety in being a PP. Just legality. Even the commercial is quite low. It is only when you get to flying passengers of the general public(135 and 121) does the FAA start taking training and experience even a little serious. Even the corporate pilot flying turbine equipment is controlled much more by insurance than the FAA.
The system is not perfect.

Okay, so set our new "Reimbursement Rule for Private Pilots" at 250 hours of safe operational experience before they can accept reimbursement from passengers. Problem solved. They now have the PROVEN experience necessary to satisfy even the nanniest of nanny staters.

Honestly, I think you guys are making a simple issue overwhelmingly difficult to solve.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Okay, so set our new "Reimbursement Rule for Private Pilots" at 250 hours of safe operational experience before they can accept reimbursement from passengers. Problem solved. They now have the PROVEN experience necessary to satisfy even the nanniest of nanny staters.

Honestly, I think you guys are making a simple issue overwhelmingly difficult to solve.

Sent from my Nexus 7

Wayne already gave you his answer to that solution.

Proficiency and safety are not synonymous.
 
After researching the background for this proposal I can't shake the impression I have of all the FAA General Counsel opinions, ALC decisions and NTSB opinions on appeals, that I have been poring over rehashed medieval ecclesiastical court decisions or transcripts of Professor Erwin Cory's brilliant doubletalk comedy routines. There is even a hint that they are taking cues from the Ayatollahs and their sycophant mullahs.

If the subject matter was not so serious it would provide endless entertainment. Consideration by the agency of the questions themselves proclaims the absurdity as much as the Byzantine replies. When is something in ordinary experience that is not compensation, compensation? When is a passenger not a passenger? I can get reimbursed for transporting a political candidate but not my wife and kids?!! It's way past time to end this madness and the only way I could see to do it is to seek statutory relief.
 
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Here is a bit of clarification and additional information about the current situation, plus some history, from my friend aviation attorney Rick Durden:

"Until the last few months, if you made a flight for Angel Flight you could not legally get reimbursed for fuel unless you and the organization complied with the very complicated waiver (if the organization had the waiver and only 8 do). I know there were volunteer pilot organizations that were illegally reimbursing pilots for fuel; I know of only a couple FAA enforcement actions. A law was passed this spring allowing medical transport groups to reimburse volunteer pilots for fuel and directing the FAA to set up regulations for the process - I'm on a committee that is working with the FAA to issue regulations that are not as horrendous as the waiver because the wavier is so difficult that virtually no pilots are complying - it's cheaper to pay for the gas than to comply with the waiver.

However, right now, there is a big opening, any medical transport volunteer pilot organization can reimburse pilots for fuel until the FAA puts the regs into place, which won't be until sometime next year.

So, if you want to fly your buddy to Mayo, have him go through a volunteer pilot organization, you take the mission and get reimbursed.

Actually, from what I can tell, the regs on pilots getting paid when carrying passengers go back to the horrific railroad accidents of the last half of the 1800s.  They were so frequent and so bad that (capitalism wasn't self-regulating, most people lived where they had no choice as to which railroad they could take) regulations slowly were introduced and lawsuits against the railroads for negligence developed a field of transportation law. It boiled down to this:  a paying passenger must be given the highs standard of care (above the standard of ordinary care).

That carried over to aviation. A pilot carrying a passenger who was paying for the flight was obligated to provide the highest standard of care - which evolved into regulations regarding required pilot training, certification, aircraft maintenance and so forth, just as it had with the railroads.

But, some exceptions were carved out:  A pilot carrying a paying passenger on a sightseeing flight (read barnstormer flying from a field and giving a flight that lasted maybe five minutes) was not under the highest standard of care obligation.

Then came the whole fight over what was "paying passenger?" That law evolved into a pilot who was carrying passengers for their own purposes was not obligated to the highest standard of care because he wasn't getting paid and the passenger wasn't paying. The fine line that was drawn (and lines have to be drawn somewhere) was that the occupants could split the cost of the fuel (or rental) and the pilot had to pay his pro-rata share.

The question is not the right of the pilot (pilot's have few "rights" as flying is a privilege, subject to revocation), the issue is the protection of the innocent passenger who is not in control of the airplane and what level of protection is owed to that passenger. If the passenger is going for a ride with a friend and splitting the cost, the passenger should not have the expectation of some high level of safety.  The moment the passenger pays for the flight, beyond splitting costs, the passenger has an expectation (under the law) of the highest level of safety and therefore the pilot must comply with the regulations of Part 135 or 121.

When you think of the law as evolving from the perspective of protecting innocent passengers, it tends to make sense - such as why a pilot flying solo can do akro without a chute, but if there is a passenger, chutes must be worn. If you think of the law from the perspective of the pilot, it seems like everyone is trying to screw the pilot - which is often the case, but the pilot is the captain of the ship, is ultimately responsible for the safety of all aboard and has to bite the bullet when it comes to compliance with regulations that were created for passenger protection."

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
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Jay, I would encourage you to put this in a new thread. Everyone who has an interest in this whole discussion should read what you wrote. It is the best explanation of the whole pile of posts on this subject.
One may not agree with the laws but, it appears to be a LITTLE method to the madness. Thanks for the post.
 
Good perspective, Jay. Thanks.

Now here's my beef, even from the passengers' safety angle: why is it OK for me to get reimbursed if I fly in the name of a charity, political campaign or SAR, but I can't be reimbursed if my wife is on the plane? The concept of protecting the passengers from unscrupulous commercial operators is a good one to keep centered in the public consciousness, but we must be vigilant that the price paid is not our fundamental liberty.

For me the whole thing today is about failure of the present generation to assume responsibility for our own decisions. I lived in France for a number of years at the height of the socialist experiment and it shocked me how easy it was to transform the descendants of the Enlightenment thinkers who inspired the very idea of the United States into the sheeple they have now become. The end game of the nanny state of course are countries like the former Soviet Union and China. That's where this kind of thinking leads. And that's why I'm going to push back on the nascent tyranny that I perceive wherever, whenever and however I can.
 
Now here's my beef, even from the passengers' safety angle: why is it OK for me to get reimbursed if I fly in the name of a charity, political campaign or SAR, but I can't be reimbursed if my wife is on the plane? The concept of protecting the passengers from unscrupulous commercial operators is a good one to keep centered in the public consciousness, but we must be vigilant that the price paid is not our fundamental liberty.
All I can say is that if you open that can of worms you might not like the results.
 
Dr. Mack, at the risk of sounding critical, I am not and applaud your effort. The situations you mentioned are specific situations carved out of the general rule. Perhaps we need a carve out for Dr. Mack, making it OK for him. Again not being critical but IF there is to be a line, where is it to be drawn?

Like Wayne and Eversky I fear many unintended consequences, except that I think very few would benefit anyway. I just fear once you essentially tell corporations they can hire an in house pilot even a private pilot to fly their people around it could get sticky. Yes, this is essentially what you are asking for. You want to receive compensation for flying employees on company business using your plane.

The vast majority of my flying has been corporate (Pt 91). One company I worked for I had other office duties not flying related. Many times I have flown myself and another plant worker to fix a problem with a client and other times just flew the boss. The thing is on almost every flight I was along for more than just a pilot, I was part of the reason for the trip. The insurance company would have never allowed me to fly as a PP. The rule change would have made it possible for me to do my job as a PP. Yes, technically my ratings got me the job but, I spent many more hours in the office than in the cockpit. It would make it easier for unscrupulous small companies, perhaps with flying CEO's to set up a small flight department with just the PP.

In the real world once you get into aircraft that can actually be used for dependable and consistent business travel the insurance companies will most likely solve the problem.

Anyway, I look forward to see how congress reacts.
 
political campaigns (why are we not surprised?)

Actually, there is a good reason for that.

There are nasty election laws about receiving gifts. Like free flights. The candidates have to pay you for it or they get into hot water themselves (subject to minimums, reporting, etc.).

It's not like the private pilot is running for office. The exemption is for flying a candidate around as a passenger. Who is required to pay you.
 
Actually, there is a good reason for that.

There are nasty election laws about receiving gifts. Like free flights. The candidates have to pay you for it or they get into hot water themselves (subject to minimums, reporting, etc.).

Well, then they should charter a plane.

What makes them any different from some engineer reimbursing his buddy to fly him to a meeting or jobsite ?
It's all for safety right, so why is there an exemption for the people who eat the money if there is none for the folks who make it.

This is a self-serving piece of special interest legislation.
 
Well, then they should charter a plane.

What makes them any different from some engineer reimbursing his buddy to fly him to a meeting or jobsite ?
It's all for safety right, so why is there an exemption for the people who eat the money if there is none for the folks who make it.

This is a self-serving piece of special interest legislation.
I just assumed it was about money. The commercial operations don't want Mom and Pop airways to set up competition by using C-172s and Private Pilots. Am I wrong? :dunno:

Seriously, I don't believe it has much to do with safety. Only competition. That is why you cannot "hold out" even with a Commercial certificate.
 
It would actually be in the hands of Maria Cantwell if she manages to defeat "go f#$* yourself" Michael Baumgartner in November. If she fails, who knows who would end up with the appointment. That's up to the leadership to decide. We can only speculate at this point. The House on the other hand is more certain as most of the majority members of the Subcommittee on Aviation are expected to return for the 113th.

Well, you probably don't need to worry there. I'm voting for Baumgartner because I can't stand CANTwell. But, King County will ensure that she is re-elected.

As long as you are not afraid of them filing a lawsuit against you, and your family, and your friends, and well you get the idea.:goofy:

I find it amazing that lawyers can get medical care. :D
 
Why cant you take a Commercial Pilot ride and demonstrate proficiency?
I think what you're trying to say here is that a commercially rated pilot can go rent an airplane and fly a passenger for compensation. It is my understanding that a commercially rated pilot can't do this without running afoul of Part 135, unless that commercial pilot is being compensated for a waived activity ([FONT=ariel, helvetica, sans-serif]f[/FONT]
[FONT=ariel, helvetica, sans-serif]light instruction, nonstop sightseeing flights, ferry or training flights, crop dusting, seeding, spraying, and bird chasing, banner towing, aerial photography or survey, fire fighting and powerline or pipeline patrol, etc). Given that a commercial pilot is prohibited from receiving anything that the FAA is deemed compensation for transporting someone from point A to point B, I think that saying "just take a commercial pilot ride" doesn't really address the concerns listed here.

I would actually be perfectly fine if they made Part 135 certification easier and less costly for single pilot owners, or if they had a standard around commercial pilots being allowed to be "compensated" for transport, even if the commercial pilots had to meet Part 135 standards to receive such compensation. In my mind the biggest difficulty there is certifying the AIRCRAFT to Part 135 standards. I can't just go rent a plane as a qualified commercial pilot and get reimbursed to fly someone to a business meeting we're both going to (or receive any other form of compensation - i.e. "hour building").
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Dave, as Chrisk said, having a commercial only allows you to be a pilot for compensation. You can not furnish the aircraft. That would put you squarely in Pt. 135. Both pilot and aircraft must meet a higher standard.
 
If private pilot such a good and experienced flyer, I really see no problem for him to get the commercial license quick. After all the only difference between PP and CP are few extra maneuvers and little bit tighter tolerances.

Now if commercial license such a big deal for experienced private pilot perhaps he is not that good yet? So why can't private pilots fly for hire? May be because "too good" to get their commercial ;)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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