Which Training Facility?

georgewdean

georgewdean

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
26
Location
Denton DFW Texas
Display Name
Display name:
George Dean
I am about to embark on the PPL journey.

I have two local options.

ONE: A large flight academy at my local airport. They use the Diamond DA-20. SUPER sharp looking plane. Its $100 an hour plus $50 an hour for an instructor. I like the modern planes. I am concerned about the rotating instructors during my training.

TWO: A private CFI who instructs in his 1967ish Piper Cherokee who has been a CFI for nearly 40 years. He is an old timer with tons of time and great references. I am concerned about the age of the aircraft. He flies out of the subdivision he lives in (their own runway). Its $75 an hour plus $40 a lesson for the instructor. MUCH cheaper at the end of the day.

Any insights you can share??

Thanks,
George
 
Can you try both and see which one you like more?
 
Go with the guy that has the experience. The new CFI's rotating through the "flight academy" don't even know what they don't know yet. The guy that has been doing it for forty years probably has an idea by now on what he doesn't know.:smile:

The age of the aircraft isn't an issue as long as it is well maintained. Cherokee's are relatively cheap and simple to maintain. I imagine the DA20's are cheap to maintain also but the higher cost will be partially driven by acquisition cost the owner is trying to recoup.

All that said, the guy that has been instructing forty years and you have to mesh. Go fly with him and see if you like his teaching style. Look at the aircraft and see if it is cared for. Is it kept clean? Do all the instruments work?

Remember that you can always change track if things don't work out. It will cost a little bit to change track but it shouldn't be more than a couple extra hours.
 
Ditto what DakotaDriver said. I would much rather learn from a greybeard. The kids "teaching" at the flight academy type place are only keeping you safe during some maneuvers that they only just learned themselves, while they accumulate enough hours to move up the ladder. The truly experienced instructor will be able to pass on pearls that might save your life some day. He can be a valued resource for years to come.

Wells
 
The greybeard is my GUT too...

I guess there is plenty of time to fly a diamond later. :)

I will most likley take a lesson or two from EACH to make sure.

George
 
George, First off Welcome to POA! This is the front porch of Aviation. We hope you will chime in a lot here and tell us about your training as it goes along and even meet some of us at the Flyins.

Second congrats on pursuing the PPL. If your like many of us this is a life long dream of yours.

Now as to your specific question. Dakota Driver said it pretty well. Not all large flight schools are bad and there is a lot to be said for them, plane availability is one good thing. But as you pointed out the young instructors want to move up to the airlines and thus they rotate out that can be frustrating as hell.

As for the plane well the 1967 Cherokee is an awesome plane and I cannot think of a a better trainer. Once you get your ticket you can go rent what ever you want with an hour or two of check out.

My feeling is this, for the most part the younger guys and gals teach because they love to fly the older guys teach because they love to teach flying. I will tell you though that there are some AWESOME younger CFI's on this board who love to fly and teach, Tony Condon in Iowa or Tristan out in NE If you can hook up with a guy like him your golden.

One final thought if you put your location in you profile or tell us here there is a good chance that someone who posts on POA may be located there and can give you some more local information or even mentor you.
 
Some of the younger ones at the acadamy will be good, but most of them are building time looking for an airline job. The acadamy will give you more standardized training.

OTOH, the older gentleman will be teaching because he loves to, and because he loves to fly. You will most likely get more practical (and tailored) general aviation experience there.

In my estimation, if you're learning to fly to be a GA pilot (and that's all), then the older gentleman is the way to go. His plane is typical of most GA airplanes out there.

If you're looking for a career in aviation, consider the acadamy. The standardized nature of the training will suit you well for a career.

Solely my opinion, of course.
 
wildwobby said:
Can you try both and see which one you like more?
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I would suggest this option. Just because someone is older and more experienced doesn't mean that they are necessarily better or that they are going to be a good personality fit. I have known some excellent young (at the time) instructors who eventually went on to other things. That dosn't mean they weren't dedicated to their students during the time they were instructors. I wouldn't worry about the age of the aircraft as long as it is well maintained but if he instructs out of the airport in his subdivision I would make sure he exposes you to busier airports so you don't get used to being the only one in the pattern.

With a one-man operation you aren't going to need to worry about turnover but with the pilot market the way it is right now I don't know how much turnover there will be at a big flight school. In an environment with more pilots around you will have the chance to be exposed to different ideas which can be valuable. Of course you will be exposed to different ideas here too. :)

I think it all boils down to both the individual instructor and what environment suits you more. That's why I think you should try a short lesson at both before making a decision. Anyway, welcome to POA. Let us know what you decide!
 
Goal = fulfill a passion in my life and to possible one day take my family on vacations with it. I have three girls and a wife. I will eventually need a five/six seater.

Town = Denton (Dallas/Ft Worth) area

Thanks guys!

George
 
DFW area! Troy and Spike will hopefully chime in here. They are great contributors from that area.
 
georgewdean said:
I am about to embark on the PPL journey.

I have two local options.

ONE: A large flight academy at my local airport. They use the Diamond DA-20. SUPER sharp looking plane. Its $100 an hour plus $50 an hour for an instructor. I like the modern planes. I am concerned about the rotating instructors during my training.

TWO: A private CFI who instructs in his 1967ish Piper Cherokee who has been a CFI for nearly 40 years. He is an old timer with tons of time and great references. I am concerned about the age of the aircraft. He flies out of the subdivision he lives in (their own runway). Its $75 an hour plus $40 a lesson for the instructor. MUCH cheaper at the end of the day.

Any insights you can share??

Thanks,
George
Click to expand...
Your situation was not unlike the one I faced when I pursued my PPC the second time. The first time the choice was easy, I had the USAF Aeroclub and it was cheap.

The 2nd time I had choice.

Both the grey beard and the CFI from the other more commercial group were good. I meshed with both. I felt that the grey beard may challenge me a bit more but I felt that the other CFI was equally responsible.

Both groups appeared to run a professional outfit. Considering some of the other fligth schools I had visited this was a good a thing. There were plenty of fly-by-night places. Looking at equipment one group had older models and the other newer models from a different company. In the end I decided that I would go with the more commercial flight school.

It came down to scheduling. I had a very tough schedule with lots of travel. I needed to be able to fit into a cirruculum that could be easily picked up byu a subsitutue CFI, I also needed a place with plenty of planes so that I would perhpas not have to wait days to get a flight. I do not regret my decision. For my instrument I ended up going with the grey beard for a while and still do business with his shop. I made sure I did not burn any bridges.
 
FWIW

Step one try both and evaluate the isntructor.

Step two take a few lessons. At the school you may find scheduling an issue especially with their better instructors.

Step three go to the other location for an evaluation / lesson.

At that point you should know who you like for their style of teaching. If either of th insturctors or schools have a problem with you flying with someone else during training you may want to consider going somewhere else.

On a semi regular basis it won't hurt to fly with someone else and it does not need to different aircraft. Just find someone else to get a fresh evaulation on how you are doing and a new perspective on how to fly.
 
I would agree that you need to try both of them. There are advantages to the larger organization in terms of availability. If your "greybeard" or his plane are unavailable, because of medical, maintenance, or vacation, you're going to be SOL. With the larger outfit, you have the flexibility of using another instructor or plane if there are conflicts. Also, the availability of other instructors to do a "Phase Check" (used in both part 141 and part 91 operations) allows you to get an objective opinion of your progress and any weak areas at a couple of points along the training regimen. Having said that, you *may* be able to get them to work with your greybeard in that capacity, but it seems rather unlikely to me.

After you get your certificate, if you're planning to *purchase* a 5/6 seater, you may need to get an instrument rating in order to insure it, depending on who your insurer is. It may be possible to rent one without the IR. I mention this because if the school has this sort of plane for rent, having an established relationship with them may make things go easier. Of course, you could establish that relationship by going to them for an instrument rating after getting the private through "greybeard." There's a lot to be said for using multiple instructors during your training career, because they bring new perspectives.
 
I also agree that it wouldn't be a waste of time and money to try one lesson with each.

As for big school/new planes vs. old-timer/old plane: My two cents is that assuming the best possible big school/new plane and best possible old timer/old plane, you will get a lot more than savings by going with the old CFI/old airplane.If the guy is really a good, experienced teacher and he and the plane are available often enough to suit you, you will get a proper foundation-intensive education, and probably finish as quickly as you would with the fancy school.

But there are so many possible variables, so definitely try both, and be sure to get a clear picture of what scheduling would be like with both parties.
 
georgewdean said:
The greybeard is my GUT too...

I guess there is plenty of time to fly a diamond later. :)

I will most likley take a lesson or two from EACH to make sure.

George
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Without knowing the school or the greybeard, my gut would be for the latter as well for several reasons including his experience (both teaching and flying) plus the definite advantage of sticking with one instructor for the whole time (although it would also be a good idea to fly with one or two other instructors every now and then for counterpoint).

Once you have your PPL you can go to the school and get a Diamond checkout in a few hours if you still feel so inclined. I do recommend that you find out who maintains the Piper and see if it's been properly kept up to snuff. As long as it's getting good maintenance there's no reason to fear/avoid an older plane.
 
rottydaddy said:
I also agree that it wouldn't be a waste of time and money to try one lesson with each.

As for big school/new planes vs. old-timer/old plane: My two cents is that assuming the best possible big school/new plane and best possible old timer/old plane, you will get a lot more than savings by going with the old CFI/old airplane.If the guy is really a good, experienced teacher and he and the plane are available often enough to suit you, you will get a proper foundation-intensive education, and probably finish as quickly as you would with the fancy school.

But there are so many possible variables, so definitely try both, and be sure to get a clear picture of what scheduling would be like with both parties.
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One potential downside to the old airplane/CFI is that it's likely he has no backup airplane and this could leave you in a lurch if it has a problem that takes a long time to fix. It would certainly be a good idea to ask that CFI what he would do if the plane was taken out for many weeks and you were only a few lessons from your checkride.
 
My gut feeling would be to go for the grey beard. I trained with a guy that is 74 years old and been flying for god knows how many years. He did a great job for what I needed. Not being as structured probably as the school means more self structure for you, which I believe is a good thing.

In Texas in the Diamond you're going to bake this time of year. Lots of sun screen, a hat and a towel to wipe away the sweat woul dbe my guess. The Cherokee won't be extremely more comfortable, but a little bit so.

I first started in a Cherokee on my first attempt and loved it and have most recently flown a 74 Archer, grown up Cherokee. I would at least try both and get a feel for them. Might turn out you just don't get along with the old guy.
 
georgewdean said:
I am about to embark on the PPL journey.

I have two local options.

ONE: A large flight academy at my local airport. They use the Diamond DA-20. SUPER sharp looking plane. Its $100 an hour plus $50 an hour for an instructor. I like the modern planes. I am concerned about the rotating instructors during my training.

TWO: A private CFI who instructs in his 1967ish Piper Cherokee who has been a CFI for nearly 40 years. He is an old timer with tons of time and great references. I am concerned about the age of the aircraft. He flies out of the subdivision he lives in (their own runway). Its $75 an hour plus $40 a lesson for the instructor. MUCH cheaper at the end of the day.

Any insights you can share??

Thanks,
George
Click to expand...
Welcome to the community.

I would opt for the older guy with the older plane. Unlike autos, older planes are just as airworthy as new ones. What you will miss out on is the latest and greatest glass instruments. Also, you will be working with someone with enough hours and experience to turn you into a great pilot.

You should keep track of the money you save with the cheaper option, then after you have your PPL, take those savings to the flight academy for transition training into the Diamond. Best of both worlds.

BTW, this is the voice of experience. I have been trained by individuals and by a flight academy. Now, I always choose the older independent.
 
I went with a flight school/flying club when I first started. It seemed like a well run organization at the time. Their training planes were mostly older Cessna's and Piper Cherokees. They told me it would be around six to eight thousand dollars and about six to eight months to get my ticket. So I decided to go with them on a pay as you go basis.

Two years later and countless instructor changes, I was still flying in the pattern only. Every time I had an instructor change, the new one would have me start at the beginning. I could not understand what was going on, they were pushing the young people through in no time at all, yet I was going nowhere. Then one day, the owner called me into his office and was going over all my training records. He explained to me that since it was taking me so long, I would have to start from square one all over. Then the light came on, they were not graduating any of the older guys, we were their cash cows.

I quit the "school" and bought a Piper Warrior and hired a private instructor. My first private instructor got a job flying for FedEx, he turned me over to a very experienced 74 year old instructor. My check ride is the 24th of this month. From the very beginning, I have spent over one hundred thousand dollars to get to this stage. That includes the warrior, twenty four thousand dollars at the "school" where I mastered touch and go operations. The upkeep on the warrior, fuel, and lessons, and various medical and vision tests required by the FAA.

I started when I was 61, I'm now 66. I had to stop training for one and a half years to take care of legal issues. If I had it to do over again, and knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't do it at all. I for certain would never, ever, go to a flight school. These are small to big operations with one thing in common, they all have big overhead. They are desperate for cash flow, and will do anything to maintain it.

I thought about renting my warrior out for instruction, until I talked to my insurance company. You have to get a lot of rental hours just to cover the insurance, I don't think I could do that.

John
 
wildwobby said:
Can you try both and see which one you like more?
Click to expand...
+1.

For the private pilot certificate, you want to find an instructor who you "mesh" with very well. The odds are that the greybeard will be a better teacher, with more experience adapting to students who vary in how they learn best. But you may find that you don't get along with him that well - it happens.
 
georgewdean said:
TWO: A private CFI who instructs in his 1967ish Piper Cherokee who has been a CFI for nearly 40 years. He is an old timer with tons of time and great references. I am concerned about the age of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

No need to be concerned about that. A properly maintained old aircraft is safer than a brand-new aircraft that's neglected. I'm pretty sure the USAF is still using many airplanes older than 1967, and they don't mess around when it comes to reliability!

The price difference also may help you to train on a regular basis, which is the key to getting it done.

IMHO, the only reason for not going with the graybeard and his Cherokee would be if you have a personality conflict.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
No need to be concerned about that. A properly maintained old aircraft is safer than a brand-new aircraft that's neglected. I'm pretty sure the USAF is still using many airplanes older than 1967, and they don't mess around when it comes to reliability!
Click to expand...

B52 or C5A vs the F-22.

Counselor may rest his case.
 
wsuffa said:
B52 or C5A vs the F-22.

Counselor may rest his case.
Click to expand...
Well, I agree with the assertion that a properly maintained older aircraft can be safe. However, military aircraft, with the constant maintenance and care that they receive, can not really be cited to support that contention. It would be like taking a statement about 2-crew airline operations and expecting it to be clearly applicable to GA single pilot operations.
 
As a Fellow Student Pilot, I know your problem when it comes to picking a School.
In my case it was rather easy. I have only two schools in my area. One that Ag Pilot Friends said never to use, and the one I fly with now. He uses a 1978 Cessna 152.

In the end, I'd go with the older guy. But go with your gut.

I was also told that with most large flight schools the CFI's are there for time building, not to teach. Watch out for that too.
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, I agree with the assertion that a properly maintained older aircraft can be safe. However, military aircraft, with the constant maintenance and care that they receive, can not really be cited to support that contention. It would be like taking a statement about 2-crew airline operations and expecting it to be clearly applicable to GA single pilot operations.
Click to expand...

Okay, then I'll point out Tom D's beautiful Fairchild which is older than anything the military flies. :yes:

The point is, there isn't anything inherently wrong with flying a '67 Cherokee vs. a new airplane, it's just not a reason to pick one school over the other. (Unless you just want to fly something new and sexy instead of Old Faithful.)
 
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