Which is safer motorcycles or GA?

[Smutny]

Lies, damn lies and statistics...

It's not an apples to apples comparison, simply you have a much larger population of Darwin award candidates on two wheels that two wings.

Riding, like flying, is all about risk assessment. I ride year round, except on ice when I know it's out there. (That'll change if I buy a 2WD Ural.) I see all sorts of bikers out there, from the Summer only with rusty skills to the traffic demon with questionable skills, both of which put themselves in situations that need not be if they had better risk management.

 

[Velocity173]

I was in a fairly decent motorcycle crash about eight years ago. I had a guy cut me off. I hit the brakes, locked up the front tire, and went over the handlebars at about 40 mph. It was Thursday July 17th at 7:30 AM in 2008. It was already approaching 100 degrees here in the desert. I was wearing my helmet, a T-shirt, jeans and tennis shoes. I had no gloves on. I lost the top layer of skin on both arms from my palms to between my elbows and shoulders. I also just about broke my ankle. The recovery from the road rash was the most painful thing I have ever experienced in my entire life.

Whether on a motorcycle, or in an airplane, there are lots of things you can do to reduce your risk past the baseline level. But! there are a lot more things you can do to reduce your risk in the airplane. Most of the things that will kill you in an airplane are the result of decisions you make. Most of the things that will kill you on a motorcycle are the result of decisions other people make.

As far as the poll is concerned, I voted that they are basically the same risk. I believe that on average, when you look at deaths per passenger mile travelled that is an accurate statement. Of course, it doesn't tell the whole story though.

My very first scene site was an accident similar to that. Guy got cut off and went flying over the handle bars. His leg was seriously injured so the need for the flight.

Picked up one the other day where the guy laid down his bike with a bit of road rash but then got run over by a semi truck. Just bad luck there.

 

[steingar]

This is not what causes most aviation accidents. This is the thing that everyone is afraid of, but it is not the thing that kills pilots. It actually is the cause of only a very small portion of airplane accidents. Pilots making poor choices, particularly associated with weather, is what kills people that die in GA crashes.

True, though wx is often not what was forecasted, and it is easy to keep going. I suspect many of us have frightened themselves on at least one occasion. But keep in mind also that all those pilots are just like you. They didn't think they were making poor choices. They didn't think they were commencing an accident chain.

The main poor decision that kills bikers is riding under the influence. Riding without gear is another biggie (with respect to our other poster, but in my household too hot for gear is too hot to ride). I am certain there are instances of bikers being killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not too many though. Mari's deceased friend is a good case in point, my bike stays in gear and I watch my rear view mirrors until there is someone stopped behind me.

Since we're trading anecdotes I'll add mine. Most of the dead bikers I know were either drunk or on something when they bought it. Couple died at the track. They were all younger than the youngest pilot with whom I associate.

 

[jkaduk]

I believe time of exposure should be used when comparing the two rather than miles. Think of it this way, an SR-71 has less than an hour for something to go wrong in 1000 miles where on a motorcycle the time of exposure is days.
Another problem with comparing the two is that just as the intoxicated rider with no helmet skews the motorcycle safety record, so does the scud running pilot in a marginally maintained airplane skew the GA record.
I vote for GA. You are far less exposed to the mistakes of others when flying.

 

[petrolero]

True, though wx is often not what was forecasted, and it is easy to keep going. I suspect many of us have frightened themselves on at least one occasion. But keep in mind also that all those pilots are just like you. They didn't think they were making poor choices. They didn't think they were commencing an accident chain.

The main poor decision that kills bikers is riding under the influence. Riding without gear is another biggie (with respect to our other poster, but in my household too hot for gear is too hot to ride). I am certain there are instances of bikers being killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not too many though. Mari's deceased friend is a good case in point, my bike stays in gear and I watch my rear view mirrors until there is someone stopped behind me.

Since we're trading anecdotes I'll add mine. Most of the dead bikers I know were either drunk or on something when they bought it. Couple died at the track. They were all younger than the youngest pilot with whom I associate.

This goes through my mind a lot. No non-suicidal pilot takes off thinking he's going to die that day. So I ask myself what's my safety margin, what's my way out, at what point do I make the decision to abort my current plan and make a change? How do I avoid being "that guy".

 

[Ghery]

My wife and I rode motorcycles when we were young (as in college for me, high school and college for her). I knew four people who needed helmets while riding. 3 had them and are alive today. One did not and he died at the scene. We are two of the three. That was 42 years ago when an idiot ran a stop sign and hit our motorcycle broadside. We still have fun and games from this decades later.

Now, I've been flying for about 15 years. Haven't gotten a scratch, either on the planes or ourselves.

As noted by others, I have a lot more control over the risks when flying. I'm not (all that much) at the mercy of other people. When riding a motorcycle we were very much at risk from the mistakes of others. When flying I can control, to a large degree, the level of risk. Weather lousy? Don't fly. Running low on gas? Land and refuel.

Both have their risks, but I'll stick with GA.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I have no idea and don't really care. I voted anyway.

 

[Bill]

But the one motorcycle fatality I knew well was rear-ended by a drunk driver while stopped. She had full gear on and a nice BMW. So there are obviously exceptions.

That is why you don't pull all the way up against the car in front of you, why you leave the bike in 1st gear with the clutch pulled in, and why you flash the rear brake light some random pattern as the cage comes up behind you.

If it doesn't look like they're going to stop, you run up along side (pick best side) the car in front of you and let that car take the hit.

NO motorcyclist should be getting hit from behind at a red light.

 

[alfadog]

I have no idea and don't really care. I voted anyway.

You're a good American

 

[Bob Noel]

NO motorcyclist should be getting hit from behind at a red light.

Agreed, but I won't place any blame on the motorcyclist if they do get hit.

 

[Brad Z]

Moreover, lots of things can go wrong well outside my control. Engine takes a dump over hostile terrain or water, I'm either colliding with cumulogranite or possibly drowning, for instance.

There are lots of things that can go wrong, but they are not the most likely culprits of GA accidents. Even non-fuel-exhaustion engine failures, one of the rarer causes of an accident, are often the result of poor maintenance and/or ignoring symptoms.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

You're a good American

lol

 

[Everskyward]

That is why you don't pull all the way up against the car in front of you, why you leave the bike in 1st gear with the clutch pulled in, and why you flash the rear brake light some random pattern as the cage comes up behind you.

If it doesn't look like they're going to stop, you run up along side (pick best side) the car in front of you and let that car take the hit.

NO motorcyclist should be getting hit from behind at a red light.

I think they were stopped at a construction site and the woman didn't even try to brake. She ran into two motorcycles and a car.

 

[flyingron]

I agreed with you, until I saw this:


http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes


If you don't drink, don't ride at night, always wear a helmet, and don't speed, the risk is reduced dramatically on motorcycles, much lower than GA.


Helmet use is addressed too...

None of those statistics means anything. To say 24% of the fatalities has a BAC of .08 or above doesn't tell you how many non-fatal/non-accident rides had a BAC of about .08.

None of this indicates any adjustment for miles or time, just per VECHILE compared to cars. This is even worse than the 6x number they quote as a lot of motorcycles owned don't get ridden anywhere near as much as the average car.

 

[DavidWhite]

Dependent on skill level of course, GA.

I ride as well as drive more delicate cars and frankly it's not me crashing that scares me, it's the housewife with 3 kids in her minivan who is oblivious to anything that isn't directly in front of her face.

In aviation you're not flying within yards of other planes, and the qualifications to be a pilot mixed with the demographics, yeah GA is quite safer.

Right. I'm also concerned about the lowest common denominator - we are not the lowest common denominator.

 

[Everskyward]

This goes through my mind a lot. No non-suicidal pilot takes off thinking he's going to die that day. So I ask myself what's my safety margin, what's my way out, at what point do I make the decision to abort my current plan and make a change? How do I avoid being "that guy".

Anybody could be "that guy". Everyone has made bad decisions but they were lucky that day. Similarly, we have all had oopses which didn't matter at that particular time but could have.

 

[azpilot]

My very first scene site was an accident similar to that. Guy got cut off and went flying over the handle bars. His leg was seriously injured so the need for the flight.

Picked up one the other day where the guy laid down his bike with a bit of road rash but then got run over by a semi truck. Just bad luck there.

After I went over the handlebars, I cartwheeled end over end several times. As I was tumbling through the air, over and over, I had the distinct thought in my head that I need to get over to the right, otherwise I would get run over.

 

[N5922S]

There's a good reason why ER docs refer to bikers as organ donors.

 

[TommyG]

I would say that the main point should be, is which one are you more likely to walk away from. Already had my motorcycle accident. Due to crap road work. Fractured ankle, collapsed lung and road rash. That was at 35 MPH!

 

[PPC1052]

I suspect many of us have frightened themselves on at least one occasion. But keep in mind also that all those pilots are just like you. They didn't think they were making poor choices. They didn't think they were commencing an accident chain.

This goes through my mind a lot. No non-suicidal pilot takes off thinking he's going to die that day. So I ask myself what's my safety margin, what's my way out, at what point do I make the decision to abort my current plan and make a change? How do I avoid being "that guy".

I used to think that way. I guess I still do to some extent. But then so often I read the reports, and I am often left scratching my head and wondering what the hell that pilot was thinking.

 

[James331]

There's a good reason why ER docs refer to bikers as organ donors.

I've also met some docs who are more of a hazard than your motorcycle

 

[GirlnFlight]

Even if you were the safest motorcycle driver in the world, there's still other drivers on the road to watch out for. In a little ELSA the odds of another plane hitting you on a clear day are negligible. I'd pick a plane over a motorcycle any day!

 

[alfadog]

There's a good reason why ER docs refer to bikers as organ donors.

You mean in the same way that A&P's refer to owners as ATM's?

 

[steingar]

Even if you were the safest motorcycle driver in the world, there's still other drivers on the road to watch out for. In a little ELSA the odds of another plane hitting you on a clear day are negligible. I'd pick a plane over a motorcycle any day!

Except that you can run circles around the cars if you're paying attention. Same as flying, situational awareness can save your six, lack of the same can put you in serious hurt.

 

[petrolero]

Anybody could be "that guy". Everyone has made bad decisions but they were lucky that day. Similarly, we have all had oopses which didn't matter at that particular time but could have.

No one is guaranteed safety, but that's too fatalistic. I can't think of decisions I've made where, in cold hindsight, I only survived thanks to luck.

I've had oopses. I've had ones that could have led to grief. But I learn from them and make damn sure I don't repeat them.

To me, "that guy" is the one who made a totally obviously avoidable bad decision. The one where everyone wonders why the hell he did that - and didn't change something when it didn't work out. I try not to do that. I am willing to buy a plane ticket rather than fly into a bad situation. I have had to put myself and my family on an airline flight. I've had to cancel plans.

If you're imagining that I'm saying that my decision method makes me immune to a screw-up, that's not it at all. I'm just telling you that I *try* to think of those things and try to break links in accident chains and not be "that guy".

 

[Everskyward]

No one is guaranteed safety, but that's too fatalistic. I can't think of decisions I've made where, in cold hindsight, I only survived thanks to luck.

I've had oopses. I've had ones that could have led to grief. But I learn from them and make damn sure I don't repeat them.

To me, "that guy" is the one who made a totally obviously avoidable bad decision. The one where everyone wonders why the hell he did that - and didn't change something when it didn't work out. I try not to do that. I am willing to buy a plane ticket rather than fly into a bad situation. I have had to put myself and my family on an airline flight. I've had to cancel plans.

If you're imagining that I'm saying that my decision method makes me immune to a screw-up, that's not it at all. I'm just telling you that I *try* to think of those things and try to break links in accident chains and not be "that guy".

But that's not how all accidents happen, with an obvious bad decision, which may not have seemed as bad if nothing had happened.

 

[yetti]

500 bikers a year die in Texas. About 365 die in GA a year in the USA

 

[Kritchlow]

500 bikers a year die in Texas. About 365 die in GA a year in the USA

Is that a fair comparison?

 

[Sundancer]

Didn't vote, because I'm motorcycle ignorant. But it's all SWAG nonsense, based on the FAA guessing hours flown, and someone else guessing motorcycle miles ridden.

As a couple folks said, you probably have more influence over risk factors when flying than when riding; and really, do you care how other folks ride or fly? If you're considering your own risk, how others operate doesn't apply to you.

 

[NoHeat]

Fatalities per 100,000 miles are significantly bigger for motorcycles as compared to small planes, but if you take away three big risk factors for bikes (unlicensed riders, drunks, and no helmets) they are actually comparable.

That was what I found when I looked up studies a few years ago.

 

[PPC1052]

According to this article,

http://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/02/09/selfie-deaths-in-2015/ ,

513 people died in plane crashes in 2015, whereas 625(!) died from erotic asphyxiation. Maybe we're making the wrong comparison.


Of course, there's no detail on how many of the erotic asphyxiation deaths were due to intoxication, no helmet, or lack of a spotter. So I suppose those stats are skewed, too.

 

[bullwinkle]

Most of the risks of flying are in control of the pilot. Most of the risks of riding bikes are outside the control of riders. Very few pilots get killed because somebody else blindsides them. They usually blindside themselves.

Flying is safer IF the pilot is careful and cautious. Otherwise it's a toss-up.

 

[WoolOfBat]

Driving motorcycles will make you a better car driver. The lack of protective metal has a way of sharpening your concentration. You are busy talking on a cell phone and i am worried if the next blind curve is a decreasing radius with a reverse bank. How many motorcyclists have you seen texting?

There are problems with the statistics. What about inexperienced, low time riders? There are surveys that indicate that the average Harley rider rides 600 to 700 miles a year. They don't ride enough to maintain proficiency.

Motorcycle Consumer News ran an article about motorcycle fatalities years ago. Helmets aren't the main determiner of fatalities. It's what state you live in. The states with the highest percentage of vehicles that are vans and pickups have the highest moto fatalities. There is a difference in hitting the road at a slight angle and a van wall at a right angle.

For those that didn't attend a Motorcycle Safety Foundation training course, 5% of moto accidents are rearenders. Seventy percent come from 10 pm to 2 pm. Excluding single vehicle moto accidents, ethanol induced or not, my general experience is that it is usually the 4 wheelers fault. I think an oncoming car making a left hand turn in front of you is the most common way for a motorcyclist to die.

There are risks in everything we do. The question is is it worth it?

Is one more dangerous than the other? Who knows? The difference would be who was in control of their own destiny.

 

[steingar]

Driving motorcycles will make you a better car driver. The lack of protective metal has a way of sharpening your concentration. You are busy talking on a cell phone and i am worried if the next blind curve is a decreasing radius with a reverse bank. How many motorcyclists have you seen texting?

This. I am a complete and utter klutz, could never do sports, can't dance, two left feet. But I've ridden safely for three decades in several US states and three different countries, and my ride have included a fire-breathing sport bike that could easily said into triple digits in second gear (it would take some effort to do it in first). Since I can't attribute my success to my physical prowess (I have none) I assume its my preternatural attention to what's around me. Drivers do the most insanely stupid things around me, but I usually see that they're going to do those things before they do them, and always have an out. Heck, the only crash I ever had was caused by a pedestrian.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

If you don't drink, don't ride at night, always wear a helmet, and don't speed, the risk is reduced dramatically on motorcycles, much lower than GA.

Fatalities per 100,000 miles are significantly bigger for motorcycles as compared to small planes, but if you take away three big risk factors for bikes (unlicensed riders, drunks, and no helmets) they are actually comparable.

If you guys are going to remove the lead contributing factors of motorcycle accidents to alter the results, it's only fair to do the same for GA. Take out the folks who don't do preflight inspections or conduct run-up checks, the ones who fly in questionable weather, and the folks who forget to change fuel tanks. Maybe don't include the people who fly when they are sick or sleepy, or the ones who aren't on any medication the FAA says "no" too. We can go on and on here.

Having done both, I feel safer flying than I did riding. I had three close calls in the one short year I rode, all due to distracted drivers. I trusted my riding, but I didn't trust the other people on the road.

 

[Bob Noel]

Driving motorcycles will make you a better car driver. The lack of protective metal has a way of sharpening your concentration. You are busy talking on a cell phone and i am worried if the next blind curve is a decreasing radius with a reverse bank. How many motorcyclists have you seen texting?

I saw a bicyclist (a future organ donor) pedalling along without either hand on the handle bar - he was busy texting while riding opposite to the traffic.

<sigh>

 

[petrolero]

But that's not how all accidents happen, with an obvious bad decision, which may not have seemed as bad if nothing had happened.

No. Not all accidents. But not all accidents involve a "that guy" type of decision. Many do, however. I don't want to be that guy.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I didn't crash or even lay my down my bike in over 25,000 miles of street and track use. I'd say the plane or bike is as safe as the operator. Sure there are cagers but you mitigate that risk the same way you do flying.

 

[Everskyward]

No. Not all accidents. But not all accidents involve a "that guy" type of decision. Many do, however. I don't want to be that guy.

Yeah but "that guy" could be you on a bad day. Of course you should try to avoid making a bad decision, but there is a danger in separating yourself into a class of pilots who would never make a bad decision, and having disdain for "those guys".

 

[petrolero]

Yeah but "that guy" could be you on a bad day. Of course you should try to avoid making a bad decision, but there is a danger in separating yourself into a class of pilots who would never make a bad decision, and having disdain for "those guys".

Yes there is a danger in that. And that's why I didn't do that.

I don't think you really understood my point. That's OK. I've explained myself well enough in the 3 or 4 posts I've written on the topic. Carry on.