Where does ice first form on an a/c?

Why? I'm just curious what the relative advantages and disadvantages are. It seems TKS would have the advantage of the fluid running back and helping to clear "non-protected" surfaces, but the major disadvantage of having to refill the fluid and the potential for running out of fluid. :hairraise:

I don't know much of anything about bleed air. :no:

I think it depends on the type of fluid -- Type I is a low viscosity, highly effective deicing fluid, but it would blow off in the breeze, but can be pumped out to deice the wing.

Type II, III, and IV anti-icing fluids, which have a higher viscosity, do not deice, they just prevent ice from forming in the first place, so they would be useless in a TKS system.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Does air fraction provide any meaning full heating on the leading edges, spars, and front of cockpit? Where have you seen ice first collect/form?
I can't believe I missed this thread. Ice always forms FIRST on the completely non-deiced plane. It forms SECONDLY on the "Inadvertent ice" equipped Cirrus or Columbia. It forms LASTLY on the FIKI certified aircraft.

Why? Because according to Murphy's Law, it has to FIRST occur where it would be most critical......
 
Good one Bruce.

So can I assume that air friction (or compression) isn't a big warming factor at 100 KIAS?
 
So can I assume that air friction (or compression) isn't a big warming factor at 100 KIAS?
You can safely assume that.

Also, the only really good surface anti-/de-ice system is hot bleed air -- ice can't form on a surface that's so hot the moisture can't freeze. Even the electrically heated leading edges aren't as good, as it's hard for your electrical power generation system to produce that many ergs, or BTU's, or whatever energy measurement unit you prefer without all the other lights going out. Turbine engines really do have piston engines beat hands down in every area except cost of purchase, operation, and maintenance.

Oh, yeah -- it takes about 400 KTAS before you get enough compression heating that you don't have to worry about ice formation. No problem in an F-111, but kinda tricky in the planes most all of us here fly.
 
Last edited:
Oh, yeah -- it takes about 400 KTAS before you get enough compression heating that you don't have to worry about ice formation. No problem in an F-111, but kinda tricky in the planes most all of us here fly.

Ohk, well that pretty much answers that question for me. I remember from some time ago seeing a drawing illustrating the areas that the 2nd gen (?) IR missles are "atrracted" to which highlighted the nose and leading edges due to compression IIRC. If I approach 400 KTAS in anything I fly then I have bigger problems then ice.
 
...
Oh, yeah -- it takes about 400 KTAS before you get enough compression heating that you don't have to worry about ice formation. No problem in an F-111, but kinda tricky in the planes most all of us here fly.


Do F-111s have de-ice capability (other than flying fast)? If not what about flying an approach in icing conditions?
 
Why? I'm just curious what the relative advantages and disadvantages are. It seems TKS would have the advantage of the fluid running back and helping to clear "non-protected" surfaces, but the major disadvantage of having to refill the fluid and the potential for running out of fluid. :hairraise:

I don't know much of anything about bleed air. :no:

I've flown aircraft with the three different anti-icing/deicing systems so I'll try to give you some advantages and disadvantages. Keep in mind that my experience has not been with deicing systems in very small airplanes, although they are not huge airplanes either. Below is the order in which I was exposed to these systems. I'm not sure whether or not having seen one system before the other one creates a preference for the more familiar one.

Boots (King Air): Since it's a deicing system you need to wait until ice actually builds up on the boots before cycling them. Some residual ice is usually left adhering to the boots. This can be reduced by treating the boots with certain products. It's also important that they are well maintained since rubber tends to deteriorate and get holes, etc. I'm not an aeronautical engineer but I'm not sure how well boots would work on airplanes with critical airfoil and leading edge designs because they don't join to the wing as smoothly as with other systems.

Bleed Air (Lear 35): Bleed air is an anti-icing system which uses hot air from the engines to heat the wings, stab and nacelle inlets. The airplane has to have enough excess thrust to use this method because siphoning off bleed air for anti-icing robs it from the engine causing a decrease in performance. Bleed air is very reliable and you don't need to refill it. Even though it's designed as an anti-icing system it will remove ice already on the wing if you don't turn it on in time. This is not the ideal situation, however, because as it melts off it could get ingested by the engines.

TKS (Hawker 800): TKS is also an anti-icing system, which means that you need to get it turned on at least a couple minutes before you enter icing conditions so that the leading edges of the wings are coated. Sometimes this is difficult to predict. This is very important because if ice starts to cover the holes you are pretty much out of luck. The fluid, at least in this airplane, is not heated so it won't melt ice. You also have to prime the system on the ground before every flight and also at other specified times if you think ice will be encountered. It's a messy system and requires a lot of attention by maintenance to keep it working properly. The leading edges need to be kept clean but sometimes just wiping them down aggravates the condition by pushing debris into the little holes. Unlike bleed air and boots (which are actually also run off bleed air), you can run out of TKS if you have not been careful about refilling it. As Kent mentioned, I guess one advantage of TKS is that if it is on long enough it can run back a little ways past the leading edges and protect those areas. However I don't think it will remove ice that is already there, nor will it come even close to covering the whole wing area.

These are just my own observations off the top of my head. I'm sure people can think of other plusses and minuses.

I think it depends on the type of fluid -- Type I is a low viscosity, highly effective deicing fluid, but it would blow off in the breeze, but can be pumped out to deice the wing.

Type II, III, and IV anti-icing fluids, which have a higher viscosity, do not deice, they just prevent ice from forming in the first place, so they would be useless in a TKS system.
TKS may be similar but it's not the same as the Type I, II, III and IV fluids used for ground deicing/anti-icing. It only comes in one viscosity.
 
Do F-111s have de-ice capability (other than flying fast)?
Heated pitot tube and alpha (AOA) and beta (yaw) probes. In addition, the windshield rain removal system which uses bleed air to blow rain off the windshield might help clear the windshield of ice.
If not what about flying an approach in icing conditions?
Stay fast/high as long as possible and get through the icing ASAP. And if you load up, there's always afterburner.;)
 
TKS may be similar but it's not the same as the Type I, II, III and IV fluids used for ground deicing/anti-icing. It only comes in one viscosity.

I learn something new everyday! Thanks Mari. I googled deeper and got...

TKS weeping wing is a mix of ethylene glycol, isopropyl alchohol, and water, and is applied at a neutral (tank) temperature.

Type I deice is a mix of 88% propylene glycol and 11.95% water (0.05% secret sauce), and is applied at 140F.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I aggree with everything Mari said! I've never used TKS, but the 1900 has both boots (wings and tail) and bleeds (engine intake lip heat is kind of bleed air and brakes). The bleeds, I think, works the best (I've never seen ice form on the engine intake lip as it's full of air siphoned straight out of the exhaust stack, but if you have a bleed air failure (over pressure/temp, the tubing can break, or you can get a faulty failure indication for any number of reasons that would leave you without de/anti-ice). The bleed air we use for your brakes is actually hotter than the stuff for the engine lip (just exhaust re-routed into the intake lip) - the brakes get straight P3 bleed air from the compression section without any interference from the Air Cycle Machine...it's got some hot f-in air.

The boots are nice, but certainly not THE most effective method out there. As Doc B said, though, just by having them we're much less likely to have icing problems than most planes out there.
 
If not what about flying an approach in icing conditions?
You know, those Sabreliner guys always said "just push it up over 300 knots, and the ice goes away...then they looked at me funny when I asked them what maneuver they used to slow from 300 kias at 100 AGL to Vref at the threshold when shooting the approach in icing conditions. ;)

And no afterburner on the Sabreliner to get 'em out of trouble, either ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
Back
Top