What's up with the IFR congestion @ KHHR?

[AA5Bman]

Do any of you Los Angeles area pilots out there in POA-land know anything aobut the IFR delays I keep getting trying to get into KHHR?

Flying back from Santa Barbara recently on a perfectly clear night I was told to expect a 45 minute hold over LIMBO (I cancelled IFR clearing the Bravo). Last night I was told more or less the same thing (but didn't cancel and didn't get the hold, either), and I've had trouble off and on at various times over the last couple of months.

I recently talked with one of the SoCal approach controllers and he said the delays are due to the proximity of LAX's ILS and HHR's Loc approach paths, and that they can't run concurrent approaches (the approaches are basically parallel, but they're probably a mile apart and the GS's are much different - at HHR's MAP, the jets on LAX's ILS are still probably at 2,000 feet). He said they were trying to get a waiver so they can run the approaches at the same time, but had no idea about when that would happen.

It's got me frustrated enough to seriously consider moving to a different airport, but I can't figure out one that really works for me. Has anyone out there had this experience, know anything about that waiver, or have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

MB

 

[schmookeeg]

Yeah, the backlog is due to LAX congestion. Apparently there's all sorts of flow control into LAX lately when its IFR. I've been denied my normal "oopsie popup IFR" strategy into HHR, and even pre-filing has gotten me attitude and expected delay nonsense from them of late. 45 minutes is nasty, though.

In thinking about it now for the first time, I wonder if the goofity VOR-25 would do any better if you used SLI as the IAF? It's sorta "less parallel" with the LAX approaches.

I've considered shooting the TOA ILS and do a contact into HHR, but haven't tested that theory for viability yet. If the minimums are down near the LOC minima, that'd be a dangerous way to get it done, but with like OVC010 or 012, it'd be worth trying.

Any bites on your pretty AA5? market still stinks for selling things, but we keep buying things optimistically. Hopefully others will start buying too

Cheers,

- Mike
N76KU

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Flying back from Santa Barbara recently on a perfectly clear night I was told to expect a 45 minute hold over LIMBO

I would have laughed! And then asked if they were trying to make a joke or what.

That's almost as good as when I heard Center instruct someone to report the Flippin VOR.

 

[AA5Bman]

Hah - good to hear from you again, Mike. No new news on the Tiger, but actually I'm finding that I like it more and more and am pretty happy to keep her. Hard to part with a plane that burns almost nothing (relatively speaking), never - ever - breaks, is cheap to insure and even cheaper to annual. It goes pretty dang fast, too, and I can fit two full sized bikes and two surfboards in there at the same time - ask me how I know! Oh, and I'd have to pay the tax bill again on a new purchase... uuughh... California, don't get me started...

It looks like you've thought of all the ideas I've had. I asked about shooting the VOR instead of the LOC last night, and they didn't give me a good answer. I'm going to try that one again if I run into the same problem sometime in the future. Breaking off from the ILS at TOA isn't ideal, but you're right, if it's 1,500 overcast, it's no big deal. I wonder what the MVA is in that area - maybe they could let us down through the clouds somewhere southeast of the airport that wouldn't conflict with LAX traffic? Of course, you'd be right over KCPM...

What a pain... what we really need is that supposed waiver.

PS - I'd also have to change my POA name, and we can't have that...

 

[AA5Bman]

As an update to the situation, I spoke with an instructor I have worked with over the years, who is not based out of KHHR so he doesn't deal with this on a daily basis, but he said he would check it out the following morning (yesterday morning) because he was going up with a IFR student. He shot me an email with his report.

First, they landed at KFUL and requested IFR to KHHR. The controller said that SoCal was reporting KHHR "under flow control" and that they could expect a 10 minute delay before getting their clearance and release. They decided to go IFR to KTOA instead. After departing, SoCal mentioned that deciding to go back to KTOA was probably a good idea because they would have had to wait for release, and then they (SoCal) would have also given them a hold enroute.

His last comment is "seems like they're trying to discourage IFR into KHHR".

Just for reference, KFUL is about a 6 minute flight from KHHR.

This bugs me. Not only is it a pain, it strikes me as potentially unsafe. It doesn't take a much of an imagination to conjure up holding over LIMBO as the sun sets and the temperatures drop, running low on fuel after a long trip... Maybe starting to collect a little ice... yuck.

If there really is a waiver they are trying to get, how do you think we can find out more about it? Can we move the process along by going to the FSDO? I've thought about getting in touch with AOPA - isn't this the kind of thing they take our dues for?

 

[Richard]

This bugs me. Not only is it a pain, it strikes me as potentially unsafe. It doesn't take a much of an imagination to conjure up holding over LIMBO as the sun sets and the temperatures drop, running low on fuel after a long trip... Maybe starting to collect a little ice... yuck.

I'd say it takes a huge imagination to conjure such a scenario. This is coastal S CA.

If there really is a waiver they are trying to get, how do you think we can find out more about it? Can we move the process along by going to the FSDO? I've thought about getting in touch with AOPA - isn't this the kind of thing they take our dues for?

Call HHR FSS or maybe a Socal App controller. Don't put much stock in AOPA.

When flying with the big iron, you gotta know you are low on the food chain. To test your hypothesis, try making the flight at different times of the day, ie, peak and off peak times.

 

[sba55]

When flying with the big iron, you gotta know you are low on the food chain. To test your hypothesis, try making the flight at different times of the day, ie, peak and off peak times.

Richard, has this been your experience with SoCal? I have to say that NorCal App and Oakland Center treat everybody, irrespective of plane size, very well. I can always get VFR FF at 6:30pm (departure rush at SFO) and at that time you can barely get a word in on the frequency.

 

[Richard]

I have been treated very well by SoCal and NorCal. Only a few times was I denied VFR FF. But the subject is IFR flight. NorCal APP vectored me off the app into Monterey and Oakland. Otherwise, that's it.

SoCal has a bit worse record. I've been shoved off the approach at SMO, HHR, and even LGB. And now I remember at least twice at FUL. One at FUL was RVs to give way to a medevac twin and Sheriff's helo inbound.

I just figure it goes with the territory. If I felt it put me in an unsafe position I would've reacted differently. In a NY second I would have.

Over all, I have no complaints.

 

[Richard]

The first time at MRY was my flight coincided with the Pebble Beach golf tournament and everyone was inbound in their Citations, Falcons, etc. Actually, I was vectored off the approach 3 times on that same flight. Each time I came back to intercept some jet muscled onto the approach. Annoying but a rare circumstance.

Also when inbound to MRY after a VFR photo flight, OAK dropped me--radar services terminated. Very busy freq. They tried to hand me to MRY TWR but TWR wouldn't talk to me until I was closer (coming in from the south).

I had a nice chat with the sector controller in which he said he was up to his eyeballs with Big Sur arrivals.

 

[Areeda]

Richard, has this been your experience with SoCal? I have to say that NorCal App and Oakland Center treat everybody, irrespective of plane size, very well. I can always get VFR FF at 6:30pm (departure rush at SFO) and at that time you can barely get a word in on the frequency.

I have found SoCal to be very accommodating whether asking for VFR or IFR services.

Just for the people not familiar with SoCal airspace allow me a few chart images:

Hawthorne is 3.7 nm from LAX (datum to datum) slightly south of due east.

The TAC:

The ILS to the southern most runway is shown below. Notice the 48nm straight in from the IAF.

For completeness here's the profile view. Note the minimum when going by HHR is 620 MSL:

Let's be a little realistic. When Flow Control is in effect at LAX the people are lined up for approaches to both complexes out pretty far.

It seems pretty reasonable to me that it takes some time to work someone into HHR. If you are low on fuel, in icing and stuck at LIMBO (best named holding fix IMHO) there are plenty of options.

Joe

 

[AA5Bman]

I'd say it takes a huge imagination to conjure such a scenario. This is coastal S CA.

Okay, maybe not the icing part, but even then the freezing level can come down pretty low in the winter. On the other hand, stuck over a cloud deck is basically a daily occurrence - marine layer at TOA, HHR, and LAX every morning and evening for a good part of the year.

I understand that we might have some friction with the jets if we were trying to get into the same airport, but we're not. And yes, going to Torrance is a safe out, but I'm sure we can all agree that it's never fun to attempt a flight home only to be diverted 10 miles away from your destination. It's a long walk back to your car... I'd move my plane to Torrance in a heartbeat and be done with it if they didn't have that darn curfew - can't depart there after 10pm or before 8am.

By the way, no knock against SoCal - they've always been helpful and I think I've only once been turned down for VFR flight following. The only time I've had a problem is IFR into HHR, and I don't think it's a workload or a personality issue, I think it's an equipment or legal thing that forces them to go to "flow control".

 

[schmookeeg]

I didn't know TOA had a curfew. Bummer, that's the only other airport (other than Corona) in SoCal that I consider friendly.

I don't think it's an egalitarian thing. It's flow control. There's a deluge of planes, and there is a long line already waiting for LAX slots. I think the 30 or 45 minute proposed wait is them basically asking you to "get in line"

Often SoCal will try to bluff me with "Center advises a 45 minute delay, do you still want to wait?" -- if I say yes, they usually slot me in within 5 minutes. I think being a "fly in the ointment" actually works to my benefit in these scenarios -- they want to be done with me ASAP.

I think it's cool to participate in flow control. But then, I never fly to get anywhere on a specific schedule. I vastly prefer waiting in the air to being stuck in traffic on the ground. Even if my Beech burns more than my Honda.

Someone should just take a sledgehammer to the HHR LOC antenna and make an LDA approach out of the thing. Point it southeast. Send us right over Compton, since they're VFR only now.