Whats the difference between Prohibited and Restricted airspace?

[poadeleted20]

No, I'm pretty sure those are just thrown up wherever is convenient for the military and often in the way.

No doubt Ed believes that the military's sole purpose in selecting where to locate MOA's and R-areas is to inconvenience him to the maximum extent possible, not to provide for the most cost-effective training for our armed forces.

 

[EvilEagle]

No, I'm pretty sure those are just thrown up wherever is convenient for the military and often in the way. When I say not a lot of traffic, I'm talking 100nm out in the Gulf, or out west of Eureka, NV.

Easily one of the most ridiculous statements ever heard on POA!

Yes, we just throw them up where ever we want! The reason why is that we just LOVE spending all our time preparing for training sorties, then having to stop the fight or not get the mission done because someone rolls through and doesn't want to talk to anyone.

C'mon guys - be reasonable! Just because we get paid to fly doesn't mean that we don't appreciate every hour in the jet. We work hard, it's not show up, go fly and go home. I love flying - civilian or military and yes, I go through MOA's in my Glasair, but I damn sure get in contact with everyone and let them know where I'm going to be.

 

[poadeleted20]

...it's not show up, go fly and go home.

To be honest, that's mostly how it was as a weekend warrior in the ANG 30 years ago, but it sure ain't that way today.

 

[EvilEagle]

To be honest, that's mostly how it was as a weekend warrior in the ANG 30 years ago, but it sure ain't that way today.

Man, that was a great deal! I wish! Sign me up!

I've been training with the New Orleans guard for the last two weeks and they are putting in the long days just like the AD guys. Good to see!

 

[alaskaflyer]

Well, calling GA aircraft "intruder(s)" when in airspace that they have as much or more right to be in as training aircraft doesn't exactly convince me that I need to defer my activity or route. Most of us aren't tooling around enjoying the scenery when transiting SUA, we need to get somewhere, and our time is just as important.

 

[Doggtyred]

Maybe you mil guys should go fly in an area where there's not a lot of traffic. You're getting paid to fly, quit ****ing and moaning.

With attitudes like that, dont complain when you see more Restricted areas and fewer MOA's.. easiest way to separate military from civilian traffic is to simply ban the civilian traffic..

 

[hoof013]

I've not seen a plant with a prohibited area around it...National Security Area, yep (have one right here over Oak Ridge TN), but haven't seen a P

P47 - Pantex Nuclear Facility outside of Amarillo.

 

[EdFred]

Well, calling GA aircraft "intruder(s)" when in airspace that they have as much or more right to be in as training aircraft doesn't exactly convince me that I need to defer my activity or route. Most of us aren't tooling around enjoying the scenery when transiting SUA, we need to get somewhere, and our time is just as important.

I don't normally agree with you on a lot, but I'm on board here. Sort of reminds me of Starship Troopers. Us GA folks aren't important enough. We've just "civilians," and should head to the back of the bus. Sorry, I manage an airport which sits in an MOA, and radar only goes down to 3000', but the MOA floor is 500', what good is it that I am talking to Center? Oh yeah, it's not.

Yeah, us civilians should just sit at home and learn cross-stitch, we aren't welcome in "their" airpspace. Nevermind the fact we pay for them to fly.

 

[EdFred]

No doubt Ed believes that the military's sole purpose in selecting where to locate MOA's and R-areas is to inconvenience him to the maximum extent possible, not to provide for the most cost-effective training for our armed forces.

I realize they are "near" airbases, but plopping them right in the middle of semi major cities isn't the most friendly place place.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

And if I'm not from the area, I am going to know that "plant" means a nuclear power plant HOW???? by looking at this chart?

The original claim of nuclear sites not being depicted on sections is still accurate...

The one southwest of DFW (nuclear) is at least labeled "power plant"; that makes it easier to discern than just "plant". I overfly a lot of plants. ;-)

 

[BillTIZ]

They generally won't shoot you down for entering restricted airspace

But you could get hit by flak.. or falling bombs..

 

[Ghery]

But you could get hit by flak.. or falling bombs..

Or artillery shells wizzing through the air in R-6703A, C and D just east of OLM. And the Rainier-1, 2 and 3 MOAs encompass those R areas, and go beyond. I've pulled the lanyard and launched some of those things there (years ago, ROTC summer camp) and I know they are invisible and would ruin my day if I tried to occupy the same point in space at the same time. It's easy enough to go around if they're hot.

 

[EvilEagle]

Well, calling GA aircraft "intruder(s)" when in airspace that they have as much or more right to be in as training aircraft doesn't exactly convince me that I need to defer my activity or route. Most of us aren't tooling around enjoying the scenery when transiting SUA, we need to get somewhere, and our time is just as important.

I don't think anyone calls GA aircraft intruder's. All the military guys I know are well aware that MOAs are free to transit - it's obvious because nearly every day we have to restrict some portion of training for civilian aircraft.

Going back to my original post - go through the MOA! I know I do when I'm flying GA. My point all along has been to encourage people to talk to the MOA controlling agency when transiting MOAs.

Most of the time we can just move the fight somewhere else - especially if it's a smallish fight (<8 aircraft). I have seen GA traffic go right through the MOA that has over 50 jets in one fight and didn't talk to a soul. Scary!

 

[EvilEagle]

Sorry, I manage an airport which sits in an MOA, and radar only goes down to 3000', but the MOA floor is 500', what good is it that I am talking to Center? Oh yeah, it's not.

I disagree - if you at least tell the MOA controller when you leave the aera, they will give traffic to the military guys and they try to avoid it. Anytime we are near civilian fields we are required to be at least 1500' and 3 miles away. Obviously that's still pretty close. Just because the MOA guys can't issue traffic doesn't mean that the mil guys can't deconflict.

 

[EvilEagle]

I realize they are "near" airbases, but plopping them right in the middle of semi major cities isn't the most friendly place place.

I'm not aware of too many that are near big cities - we don't have any bases in big cities - at least the USAF doesn't. Restricted areas could be for something besides Mil aircraft.

Do you have any specific examples of one in the middle of a semi major city? (that's used for mil aircraft)

 

[EdFred]

I'm not aware of too many that are near big cities - we don't have any bases in big cities - at least the USAF doesn't. Restricted areas could be for something besides Mil aircraft.

Do you have any specific examples of one in the middle of a semi major city? (that's used for mil aircraft)

By in the middle of them I meant between semi-major cities, not over them. Bush Creek and Buckeye MOA is one of them - just east of Cincinnati, SW of Columbus, and SE of Dayton.

 

[poadeleted20]

P47 - Pantex Nuclear Facility outside of Amarillo.

What do you think they do there? That's a national security area, not just a plant. If you don't believe me, try walking in the front gate.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think anyone calls GA aircraft intruder's.

That's the term we used to use for any aircraft which wandered into an active area (R or MOA) while we were working, GA or otherwise, so we'd know to knock it off and find them before we hit them. Better than "bogey" or "bandit," I guess.

 

[silver-eagle]

That's the term we used to use for any aircraft which wandered into an active area (R or MOA) while we were working, GA or otherwise, so we'd know to knock it off and find them before we hit them. Better than "bogey" or "bandit," I guess.

Or F'n idiot because you almost ran them over. Or deceased because you did.

 

[JeffDG]

What do you think they do there? That's a national security area, not just a plant. If you don't believe me, try walking in the front gate.

Y-12 here in Oak Ridge, TN (name of the plant, not airspace) is very similar and doesn't have a "P", only an NSA...and if you take a wrong turn and end up pulling up to their gate, you'll get a very warm reception there.

 

[silver-eagle]

One of the worst places for Restricted and MOA is the North Carolina coast. There's no easy way to avoid them. On the other hand, my last trip through, the controller at Cherry Hill was about as helpful as he could be, shortening my route and keeping me clear of the action.

 

[EvilEagle]

By in the middle of them I meant between semi-major cities, not over them. Bush Creek and Buckeye MOA is one of them - just east of Cincinnati, SW of Columbus, and SE of Dayton.

I'm not familiar with those MOAs, but I'm guessing they are for the ANG guys at Dayton and maybe Springfield.

I'll have to go to to skyvector and take a look at it. I misspoke before when I said we have no bases near big cities - Active Duty has no bases near big cities - the Guard is mostly at big cities.

 

[EdFred]

I'm not familiar with those MOAs, but I'm guessing they are for the ANG guys at Dayton and maybe Springfield.

I'll have to go to to skyvector and take a look at it. I misspoke before when I said we have no bases near big cities - Active Duty has no bases near big cities - the Guard is mostly at big cities.

When I flew through it a week ago, I was told to watch out for F-16's but that the controller wouldn't have them on radar for me. He said they might come down and take a look at me, but they never did. They must have started squawking or something because he was calling them out to the 121 guys at FL220 and FL230.

 

[poadeleted20]

Y-12 here in Oak Ridge, TN (name of the plant, not airspace) is very similar and doesn't have a "P", only an NSA...and if you take a wrong turn and end up pulling up to their gate, you'll get a very warm reception there.

PanTex does things Oak Ridge doesn't.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not familiar with those MOAs, but I'm guessing they are for the ANG guys at Dayton and maybe Springfield.

Also flight test out of WPAFB, and ANG out of other bases in OH and IN.

 

[sky1949]

You got it.

"Area 51" is "R", not "P". Somehow I susp ect that if you flew over it you might get shot down on purpose. Maybe not, but I don't want to test it.

 

[poadeleted20]

"Area 51" is "R", not "P". Somehow I susp ect that if you flew over it you might get shot down on purpose.

No, you won't. But you will get escorted somewhere else, and interviewed when you land.

 

[sky1949]

No, you won't. But you will get escorted somewhere else, and interviewed when you land.

Yeah, figured that might be an option, but I think I'll pass, thank you.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yeah, figured that might be an option, but I think I'll pass, thank you.

I know some USAF C-141 folks who did it, and they really regretted it. During a Red Flag mission in 1979, one of my Guard unit's RF-4C's had a "BLC Malfunction" (a real barn-burning, boldface, may-need-to-eject emergency) up in the area just north of there, and they were ordered to return to Nellis like 100 miles away (and maybe drop the jet anywhere along the way) rather than land at Groom Lake which they could see from where they were and be on the ground in five minutes instead of 20.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I'd have to look, but one year I flew directly from Colorado Springs to San Diego at FL180 and was cleared direct. Don't know if I went over 51, but flew over several restricted areas. All were cold for Christmas.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I was quite a bit south of Las Vegas; so, I wouldn't have flown over Area 51, but sure flew through a lot of other restricted areas.

Best,

Dave

 

[Clark1961]

I misspoke before when I said we have no bases near big cities - Active Duty has no bases near big cities - the Guard is mostly at big cities.

Hmmm, Hill is near Salt Lake, Tinker is near OKC...I'm not so sure about your claim.

 

[Bob Noel]

Hmmm, Hill is near Salt Lake, Tinker is near OKC...I'm not so sure about your claim.

Andrews Air Force Base?

 

[EvilEagle]

Hmmm, Hill is near Salt Lake, Tinker is near OKC...I'm not so sure about your claim.

I am thinking fighter bases - Hill is a definite exception. Tinker is all heavies as is Andrews (other than the Guard guys). Notice I said most of our (fighter) bases aren't near big cities. Elmendorf AFB in Ankorage, Luke AFB in Phoenix and Davis-Mothan AFB in Tucson are also exceptions.

Other fighter bases:
Mountain Home AFB, ID
Tyndall AFB, FL
Shaw AFB, SC
Seymour Johnson AFB, NC
Pope AFB, NC
Eglin AFB, FL
Eileson AFB, AK

Wow, with all the recent closures and restructuring - it's nearly even now. There are so many fewer fighter bases.

Heavies typically don't need restricted areas or MOAs (for most of their training) so I think they impact local air traffic less than fast movers. Bombers are more like fighters in that respect so we'll throw in the bomber bases too:

Barkesdale AFB, LA
Dyess AFB, TX
Ellesworth AFB, ND
Minot AFB, ND

 

[Dave Siciliano]

What about Whitman? Isn't that bombers?

Best,

Dave

 

[roncachamp]

What about Whitman? Isn't that bombers?

No, chocolates. Whiteman is bombers.

 

[EvilEagle]

What about Whitman? Isn't that bombers?

Best,

Dave

Yep, forgot about those dorks.

I'm going off memory here, I don't have a list in front of me or anything.

 

[Bob Noel]

I am thinking fighter bases - Hill is a definite exception. Tinker is all heavies as is Andrews (other than the Guard guys). Notice I said most of our (fighter) bases aren't near big cities. Elmendorf AFB in Ankorage, Luke AFB in Phoenix and Davis-Mothan AFB in Tucson are also exceptions.

The fighter CAP over the NCR is just Guard and no active duty?
(it's been a while since I've had any working relationship with
CONUS air defense)

 

[EvilEagle]

The fighter CAP over the NCR is just Guard and no active duty?
(it's been a while since I've had any working relationship with
CONUS air defense)

There isn't a continuous CAP airborne anymore - too much $$ and wear/tear on the jets. Alert is always on if there's no CAP airborne. It varies from AD to Guard, depending on the day. The Andrews F-16's are guard though.

 

[poadeleted20]

Richmond VA Guard used to pull that duty some, but they got rid of their F-16's and now they're an associate unit for the 1st Wing at Langley in F-22's, and they don't waste F-22's on this work. I think the NJ Guard out of ACY gets some of this work -- they have a long history of air defense/intercept work dating back to Darts and Deuces.