What would you have done?

Don Jones

Don Jones

Line Up and Wait
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Las Cruces, New Mexico
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DJones
I have been flying with my CFII doing an IPC. I was actually signed off last week, but wanted 1 more with hime to really rub the rust off. I had a lesson
scheduled for this morning. CFII calls about 1 hour before to cancel due to weather. I was online checking it when he called. Here is the metar at the time--KLRU 241410Z AUTO 00000KT 7SM -SN BKN009 OVC033 08/08 A3004 RMK AO2. The freezing level was 9000, there was an airmet(big surprise) for icing in precip above freezing level. There was light rain at the surface (not snow like the metar said). The reason given for cancelling, lightning. The lightning panel on DTN showed maybe 5 strikes 50 or so miles to the south of here. Question is
would you have flown? My II is a really conservative guy and I wonder if he is not to conservative. The last time we flew I kinda had to push due to weather, and it took a call to FSS to help me convince him. What would you do? A) find another II B) talk to this one C) All of the above D) nothing, he is right
Thanks for the input
Don
 
What kind of experience does your CFII have? Is he a wet-behind-the-ears guy or does he have lots of real-world experience? What kind of approaches are available at LRU? What kind of airplane?
 
Don I find some instructors are great at some things and others are wonderful at other things. I have my (short) list of guys who I think of for each thing.
I really can't answer the q about is he right, the freezing level margin may have been too low (cant remember the meas around lru), don't know the 'out' situation (ie elp reporting clear) and really have to study the convective situation before deciding if it will affect you. Too bad you missed out on some imc, often rare around here. I hope to go up Sat if it warms up abit more, down to 38 at the surface right now.
 
Ken, He has a lot of hours, real world experience, I can't answer that. The plan was going to be practice approaches at LRU. We have an ILS/LOC, GPS, and NDB approaches. We were going to be flying my Warrior. I know it is definately not a hard IFR airplane, but is well equipped with GPS, dual navs, and comms.

Dave, the mea around here is 10,000. The approaches are all flown at 6400, but the out to ELP would have been a little dicey with the frz lvl as it was. Elp was reporting brkn 2500 though. I have had center give me 9000 east bound IFR through El Paso airspace.

Don
 
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KLRU 241410Z AUTO 00000KT 7SM -SN BKN009 OVC033 08/08 A3004 RMK AO2

Well, I know what my instructor would have said...something like
"It's up to you - I don't mind going up into the clouds - but these conditions are getting close to the minimums and the question I ask you is, 'Why make an already intense training more intense by putting ourselves in questionable weather which could get worse on us?'"

Cloud time is good. Cloud time in a stable environment is better. Cloud time where you actually have to go to the mins or close to the mins in training? Maybe not so good?

Wasn't there - don't know - just going on what you've stated.
 
Greebo said:
KLRU 241410Z AUTO 00000KT 7SM -SN BKN009 OVC033 08/08 A3004 RMK AO2

Well, I know what my instructor would have said...something like
"It's up to you - I don't mind going up into the clouds - but these conditions are getting close to the minimums and the question I ask you is, 'Why make an already intense training more intense by putting ourselves in questionable weather which could get worse on us?'"

Cloud time is good. Cloud time in a stable environment is better. Cloud time where you actually have to go to the mins or close to the mins in training? Maybe not so good?

Wasn't there - don't know - just going on what you've stated.
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Chuck, while I agree with all you said, I have the rating. I was out for advanced training and real world weather experience. Unfortunately I am one of those paper IFR pilots, IMC rarely comes along around here and stable IFR virtually never. There always seems to be something that prevents me from
getting some actual in a controlled environment with a CFII on board.
Thanks for the input,
Many thanks for the clear air in here.
Don
 
In that case, Don, I would talk to him about it. You know, everyone has their level of risk tolerance, and maybe something (the ice?) was too marginal for his taste. Once you get that out, you can decide whether the guy's too conservative for you or maybe he understands something you don't.

In any event, he failed on one account ... that of being a teacher. He should have spelled out exactly what he saw that concerned him. Otherwise, it just sounds like he had something better to do and blew you off. And you don't want to live with that!!

The best instructors know just how far to let you hang your butt out so that you learn something but don't get into trouble. Canceling a flight without sufficient explanation is an unwelcome indication, in my book. But talk to him about it.
 
Ken Ibold said:
In that case, Don, I would talk to him about it. You know, everyone has their level of risk tolerance, and maybe something (the ice?) was too marginal for his taste. Once you get that out, you can decide whether the guy's too conservative for you or maybe he understands something you don't.

In any event, he failed on one account ... that of being a teacher. He should have spelled out exactly what he saw that concerned him. Otherwise, it just sounds like he had something better to do and blew you off. And you don't want to live with that!!

The best instructors know just how far to let you hang your butt out so that you learn something but don't get into trouble. Canceling a flight without sufficient explanation is an unwelcome indication, in my book. But talk to him about it.
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That is exactly the way I feel. I feel an instructors job should include exposing a student to some of the weather they may incounter on their own, and do it in a controlled learning environment. Virtually all of my own weather experience has been on my own. I do use all the tools available to me to make good decisions and have on many occasions stayed on the ground when
something was marginal for VFR flight. I would a whole lot rather explore some of the more challenging IFR weather with an instructor in the right seat. Its kinda hard to have personal minimums without some idea of what its like out there. His reason on this particular flight was the lightning. Which I did not consider a threat as it was 50 miles away and decreasing. I will discuss this more with him to find out if there was something else he did not mention.
Don
 
It is just that sort of training that Bob G from Atlanta is trying to get. It's hard. When he was up here fr his medical- he left ATL in 400-3, flew ontop and landed through ice. He brought a CFI with substantially less time than himself (He's cautious). One of these days, Bob is going to realize that he should be teaching the 350 hour CFIs something.

It may be that your CFI was uncomfortable w/o a stormscope. I bought my first one, in a 1/3 owned partnership A/C after getting catapulted to FL 18.5 in a microburst updraft, unable to get to my oxygen bottle (1990). Turns out that Albuquerque Center's radar looks up over the Sandias toward Flagstaff- they can't see anything below 26,000 feet for weather. Oh well.

Thanks to Chuck for posting the weather. I personally would have taken the trip but it IS easy to say after the fact.
 
IMHO, part of the problem may be the environment.

Las Cruces doesn't get the kind of weather (TSRA) that we see elsewhere. Come to SC/SE Texas, or many parts of the midwest for large portions of the year, and you'll see thunderstorms. You learn to deal with it. Yes, New Mexico get storms, I've seen some mighty fine ones near ABQ. But they are different than the ones in this part of the world.

A great example is this: I learned to fly in the midwest (Ohio). 5 miles in haze was a good day. Come to Texas, and lots of folks here think that's IFR weather, 'cause you often get 10+ of visibility.

It's all what you're used to.

You do have a great airport out there at LRU....
 
bbchien said:
It is just that sort of training that Bob G from Atlanta is trying to get. It's hard. When he was up here fr his medical- he left ATL in 400-3, flew ontop and landed through ice. He brought a CFI with substantially less time than himself (He's cautious). One of these days, Bob is going to realize that he should be teaching the 350 hour CFIs something.

It may be that your CFI was uncomfortable w/o a stormscope. I bought my first one, in a 1/3 owned partnership A/C after getting catapulted to FL 18.5 in a microburst updraft, unable to get to my oxygen bottle (1990). Turns out that Albuquerque Center's radar looks up over the Sandias toward Flagstaff- they can't see anything below 26,000 feet for weather. Oh well.

Thanks to Chuck for posting the weather. I personally would have taken the trip but it IS easy to say after the fact.
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Yikes, FL18.5 , where did you start from. Sounds like a wild ride for sure, not one I would want, but wild to say the least. I think their radar is better around here now, as they are always calling weather for me.
Glad to see you are still around the boards Bruce, You are one of the most valuable resources around. I am sure I am not alone when I say we want to keep you around.
Don
 
wsuffa said:
IMHO, part of the problem may be the environment.

Las Cruces doesn't get the kind of weather (TSRA) that we see elsewhere. Come to SC/SE Texas, or many parts of the midwest for large portions of the year, and you'll see thunderstorms. You learn to deal with it. Yes, New Mexico get storms, I've seen some mighty fine ones near ABQ. But they are different than the ones in this part of the world.

A great example is this: I learned to fly in the midwest (Ohio). 5 miles in haze was a good day. Come to Texas, and lots of folks here think that's IFR weather, 'cause you often get 10+ of visibility.

It's all what you're used to.

You do have a great airport out there at LRU....
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VFR flying does not get much better that this. 350 VFR days a year and vis
in the winter sometimes at least 75 miles. Oops I let the secret out, now all them nawthenurs will be moving down here, Oh wait...they already are. They claim Las Cruces's population will double in 5 to 10 years, yuk. Good for business though, keeps me flying.
Don
 
I think the advanced training you received was learning that you probably shouldn't fly under these conditions in this area. This is mostly what you were paying for -- his judgment. Perhaps, it was conservative, but I would prefer this instructor over one who wants to prove he's a "top gun" and get both of you into some serious trouble. Because you have your own ticket, you have the right to use your own judgment at another time, but with the advantage of having learned something from this CFII.
 
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Gary Sortor said:
I think the advanced training you received was learning that you probably shouldn't fly under these conditions in this area. This is mostly what you were paying for -- his judgment. Perhaps, it was conservative, but I would prefer this instructor over one who wants to prove he's a "top gun" and get both of you into some serious trouble. Because you have your own ticket, you have the right to use your own judgment at another time, but with the advantage of having learned something from this CFII.
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Could be, but like others said, he failed to teach by not explaining why and what he was seeing that I didn't
Don
 
Don Jones said:
Could be, but like others said, he failed to teach by not explaining why and what he was seeing that I didn't
Don
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All of the following taken together should raise a red flag: Thunderstorms; freezing level and ice forecast above 9,000 when out to nearby airport could require flying at 9,000 and no information on cloud tops; light rain (snow in metar).
 
bbchien said:
It is just that sort of training that Bob G from Atlanta is trying to get. It's hard. When he was up here fr his medical- he left ATL in 400-3, flew ontop and landed through ice. He brought a CFI with substantially less time than himself (He's cautious). One of these days, Bob is going to realize that he should be teaching the 350 hour CFIs something.
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Bruce,

You are right again. Sigh. I'll tell ya...I *did* instruct him all the way up and all the way back. And it is really annoying because I don't want the controllers to begin to associate my callsign with inexperience. As a courtesy I allowed him to handle the radios and he stumbled through almost every call.

The one before him left the oil cap off my left engine (a mistake I will NOT allow to happen again) -- and I was rewarded with oil all over the inside of my nacelle (luckily nothing worse.)

I do struggle with the 'JFK would be alive today if he took a CFI with him' syndrome. However, these non-hard-imc-experienced CFI's do nothing but cause me problems. I am ready to blast off into the original poster's conditions -- without them. After speaking with you last week I decided my next trip into low overcast will be solo.

To the original poster: I agree that your CFII let you down -- not by cancelling, because I'll not criticize a pilot for cancelling a flight -- but because he didn't really teach you why.

In those conditions, properly equipt, maintained, proficient, and with sufficient 'outs' I have learned that most often you go, and be ready to turn-tail and run for an out if it doesn't work out. (One thing to remember is that in the mid-lattitudes the clouds tend to be layered in the winter...and top out between 11,000 and 18,000.) Before turbo's and oxygen I flew that stuff in non-KI Cirri and always found layers to avoid ice.

Finding a CFI who can teach you *how* to fly that way instead of the pat answer, "DON'T GO" is extremely difficult. I've been lucky to have some -- but always a few months before they go to work for Delta. Lately all I've been able to find is pattern-circuit-wonders -- and they do more harm than good.

By the way -- this post is not meant to offend new CFI's who are very much needed and do a wonderful job ot teaching new comers to become very good pilots, but rather to say that when searching for someone to teach you to fly hard IMC you really need somebody who has BTDT. :)

Good luck!
 
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Don,

Also, you may want to read Bob Buck's books on Weather Flying...and I think just as beneficial is his newer, North Star Over my Shoulder -- which gives very detailed insight into his Aeronautical Decision Making and strategies for flying low clouds and ice in airplanes with similar performance to our GA piston twins.

It was really interesting reading that back then -- when many people thought they could fly any kind of weather -- Buck maintained that the only way to deal with ice was to get out of it NOW. (He is now 90 something.)

He was asked to fly into the worst weather the Earth has to offer -- and did it -- and writes about what he learned. It is a great text and I believe it made me a better pilot.

Interestingly, I met his son, a Delta Captain, on a Delta flight. It was really cool meeting somebody connected to a legend. Other than E.G.'s Fate is the Hunter, I don't know of any other books. I wish there were some, because when you're standing on the ground almost able to touch the clouds it is a little scary thinking that's where you're going.

Reading those books, and making those flights has taught me that worst case you just shoot the approach back in (I won't leave below approach mins.)

After more thinking, I'd probably get a different teacher if I were you.
 
Don Jones said:
VFR flying does not get much better that this.
Don
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Great, Don. I've made LRU a regular fuel stop when I've made trips to Phoenix and Palm Springs.

When you have those kinds of conditions, it's a lot different than learning to fly where there are regular afternoon thunderstorms.....
 
You know, one other thought cropped up as I read Bob's post.

Unlike some other areas, airports in that part of the world can be few and far between (at least compared to some other places). So, the number of "outs" diminishes somewhat.

Notwithstanding that, the CFII should have made it into a learning experience by explaining why he had an issue.

I can tell you I learned more about weather by flying my long cross countries than I ever would have been taught by a CFI.
 
Lots of good advice from some experienced people here. I want to add a bit, as a lower time IR pilot, to what has been said.

Never should anyone be faulted for making a conservative call on departing. I have already been in ice, when it wasn't quite where it was supposed to be. We had several outs, and I had a CFI, albeit not a greatly experienced one, on board with me. You DON'T want to be there. It was no fun, great learning, but no fun. The conservative answer is the one that will keep you alive to get the experience to make the hard calls. I am of the school that you are much happier on the ground wishing you were up then up, wishing you were down.

You should consider a vacation where you can get some more benign exposure to IFR conditions. There is a group that does an "east coast IFR" experience, that takes you up and down the east coast, with a focus on the Northeast. Lots of challenging approaches and excellent experience. In an environment where the thunderstorms are generally a bit tamer, and where ice is not as much of a real problem in the summer. You get the actual, without perhaps as much of the risk. Bet you would have no problem finding a CFII to go along.

Jim G
 
Started from 13.5 which is the VFR altitude of choice over the White Mountains up from Deer Valley to KFLG. Made a believer out of me very very fast. A 260hp Cessna 205 simply cannot compete with mother nature.

The weather pattern on the Colorado Plateau is not like that in the midwest- where we get massive squall lines reaching FL 48. They tend to get airmass t-storms, isolated virga that arise seemingly out of noplace (orographic assistance), so you don't see them on the mesoscale picture.

I am reminded that the US Army Air Corps (1st, 2nd, and 3rd Airforces) lost about 250 aircraft in WW2 because of a document called "Technique for penetrating thunderstorms".
 
wsuffa said:
Great, Don. I've made LRU a regular fuel stop when I've made trips to Phoenix and Palm Springs.

When you have those kinds of conditions, it's a lot different than learning to fly where there are regular afternoon thunderstorms.....
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Well, I would not say we do not have regular afternoon thunderstorms. We always have to plan on being on the ground by noon. They don't get as big as
in Dave's and your parts of the country, but tops often go over 45000. They are usually really spotty and you can pick your way through them but it's not fun. Yell next time you are through here.
Don

Man it is nice to be able to discuss something without all the other junk.
 
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