What would you do/say

saracelica

saracelica

Pattern Altitude
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saracelica
This is on a piper forum but it brings up an interesting question. http://www.piperforum.com/what-would-you-do.html

You're flying a plane (Cessna - yeah on a piper forum) and unload 4 people you tell the line guy fill it up. You're *confronted* by the line guy questioning it. Is it his business? Would it be his fault if something happened? Would you tell him to mind his business? We have a over zealous line guy at my airport. If you don' do a good preflight/run up/land firm you better believe he'll tell you - and no he's not a pilot just worked there for 20 years.
 
If I knew the W&B was good, I would tell him that I appreciated his concern, everything was legit, and please fill it up. If he still had a fit, I would complain to the management about the guy and let them handle it.
 
I just unloaded four people? From one of those clown Skyhawks?

Why would the number of people who aren't on my plane impact fueling?
 
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The article says he had no luggage and one of the passengers was a woman. Maybe she was a 100 pounder and the men were all under 200 pounds each?

Aren't most sky hawks 900 pounds, some reaching 1000 pounds useful load?

Let's give him the benefit of the double and say 1000 - 300 for the full fuel = 700 pounds.

That's 4 people if the women is short and skinny and the men are all under 200 pounds. So it's possible he was still safe. Unlikely, but possible.
 
saracelica said:
This is on a piper forum but it brings up an interesting question. http://www.piperforum.com/what-would-you-do.html

You're flying a plane (Cessna - yeah on a piper forum) and unload 4 people you tell the line guy fill it up. You're *confronted* by the line guy questioning it. Is it his business? Would it be his fault if something happened? Would you tell him to mind his business? We have a over zealous line guy at my airport. If you don' do a good preflight/run up/land firm you better believe he'll tell you - and no he's not a pilot just worked there for 20 years.
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I'd probably say "Thanks for your concern but we're OK".

It sounded to me like the "line guy" was a bit overzealous but as a pilot I wouldn't have a problem if anyone expressed their concern over my plans or behavior as long as they weren't obnoxious or arrogant. IMO, it's one thing to suggest caution and a whole 'nother fish kettle to suggest a pilot is incompetent or acting in an obviously unsafe manner.

Seems to me a significant aspect of the line guy's post was that he "thought" the pilot was about to do something unsafe. If he had more than an unfounded suspicion his actions might have been more appropriate.

And FWIW, I've flown a 172 loaded with four adults and full fuel. Depending on the 172 and more importantly the weight of the people that may or may not be overloaded.
 
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Thank you for sharing that with me.
 
I'd say, "Thanks for your concern, I've run the numbers and we're good."

A 172 really is a 4 seater if the people are small enough.

saracelica said:
This is on a piper forum but it brings up an interesting question. http://www.piperforum.com/what-would-you-do.html

You're flying a plane (Cessna - yeah on a piper forum) and unload 4 people you tell the line guy fill it up. You're *confronted* by the line guy questioning it. Is it his business? Would it be his fault if something happened? Would you tell him to mind his business? We have a over zealous line guy at my airport. If you don' do a good preflight/run up/land firm you better believe he'll tell you - and no he's not a pilot just worked there for 20 years.
Click to expand...
 
Like others have said, I would tank him for his concern, and reassure him that I had run the numbers and it was ok. In my mind there is no reason to get insulted if somebody is just showing concern for people's safety. Let's be honest, there are people that may get careless and unintentionally overload a plane.

With my family four in a 172 would be no issue, I am the heaviest at about 170 lbs.
 
I read the line guy's question a little differently. Maybe he is trying to prevent some additional work later.

My plane is not fully loaded on most trips and it is normal for me to say "top it off". He may be asking as a friendly reminder about the "top off" request. If it shouldn't have been topped off, that poor line guy will be the one offloading the excess fuel.
 
He sounds like a good candidate for FAA safety rep... Maybe he is one?

Anyway, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone with an understanding of aviation to politely ask a pilot about these things. As he is the line guy he was possibly simply making sure the PIC really wanted full fuel.

I have asked a pilot a similar question at our field, summer, high DA, people filled plane, full fuel, uphill rwy into a mt. Ridge.... The pilot and I had a nice chat. Turned out he taught mt. Flying in Colorado ... He didn't bow up he appreciated my concern.

I think it depends on the attitude of the person asking the question.
 
I wonder how much the phrasing of the question (in this posting, not at the fuel stop) affects the answers.

In this thread, the question was, "What would you do (as a pilot) if 'confronted' by a line guy about your fuel load?"

Sure, as a pilot (or human being) I don't relish anyone "confronting" me about anything. :)

In the post referenced in the first message, the situation was presented from the line guy's perspective, wondering if he might be fueling a plane to a point where there might be trouble. He would have had to live with himself and the inevitable "what if" questions if he said nothing and there was a problem.

I didn't get the impression he was trying to be Mr. W&B Nazi. He was just trying not to have any part in killing someone.

Every job comes with its own challenges. That's one I'd never thought of.
 
Yeah last time I did a W&B for a 172SP I concluded I could load four 175 lb people, and if memory serves, that was with full fuel but no baggage. I know useful load varies by the model and most are lower but still it's possible.

Looks like the same regulars are still whoring it up on the POS.
 
I could see someone making a comment with my mule...a Cherokee 235. The beast carries as much as she weighs empty. We've had 4 good sized men (funny enough all pilots) crammed in there for 3 hours with full fuel. Seeing that there's no markings on the plane to indicate it's a 235, I could see a lineman or someone thinking it's a smaller Cherokee and wouldn't be at all offended if someone made a comment like that. I'd enjoy the opportunity to educate them. :)
 
He comes up to you and you unloaded four people -0 making a total 5? Yeah, I'd have a problem with that!
 
Bonchie said:
Aren't most sky hawks 900 pounds, some reaching 1000 pounds useful load?
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From the factory, more like 850 or a bit less if there are a lot of updated avionics. Take out the 240 lb of full fuel, and that leaves some 600 lb or less for the passengers and cargo. It could be done with SMALL adults. Certainly with kids. Note that the "restart" 172s are worse in this regard despite having larger engines, as they weigh more, and also have larger fuel tanks (56 gal instead of 40).

It's common -- but not dominant -- to replace the 160 HPs with 180 HPs instead of overhauling. When that's done, you get another 225 lb or so for free. The engine is only very slightly heavier, but gross weight goes up 250 lb if you limit flap travel to 30 deg and get the STC paperwork. These 172s can easily take four adults.

There are quite a lot of stories around of four adults loaded into a 172 on a hot day departure-stalling or colliding with obstructions on takeoff.
 
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The line guy "confronts" you? All he knows is that 4 people unloaded, how does he know how many will get back in?

If, by "confront" you mean he asked, "You did say 'top it off'?" then I'd say, "Yeah, thanks." If, by "confront" you mean he asked, "You dumbass! Are you trying to kill someone?", then I'd say, "Yeah, thanks, I'll use self-serve."
 
Sounds as though the line person asked in a very friendly courteous way. I'd appreciate his concern and thank him in the same manner.
 
They used to do that at South Lake Tahoe. A couple guys ignored them and killed their whole families in the summer DA. They don't bother any more....
 
Jmcmanna said:
If I knew the W&B was good, I would tell him that I appreciated his concern, everything was legit, and please fill it up. If he still had a fit, I would complain to the management about the guy and let them handle it.
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Exactly.
 
flyingriki said:
They used to do that at South Lake Tahoe. A couple guys ignored them and killed their whole families in the summer DA. They don't bother any more....
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And I don't understand how that's possible, even with an overloaded aircraft.

That runway is over 8000 feet long. If you aren't well out of ground effect halfway down, land on the remaining runway.

A 172N POH says you should be at 50 feet by then even in 90+ deg heat at max gross at that airport. If you're not, something is wrong (maybe W&B, maybe something else), and it's time to figure out the problem on the ground.

Yet, it still happens with scary regularity.
 
MAKG1 said:
And I don't understand how that's possible, even with an overloaded aircraft.

That runway is over 8000 feet long. If you aren't well out of ground effect halfway down, land on the remaining runway.

A 172N POH says you should be at 50 feet by then even in 90+ deg heat at max gross at that airport. If you're not, something is wrong (maybe W&B, maybe something else), and it's time to figure out the problem on the ground.

Yet, it still happens with scary regularity.[/QUOTE]


Agreed........ What were they thinking..:dunno::dunno:
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Been in a 172 with 4 adults more than once. It can be done legit despite what you may read. Having said that I have no issue with someone telling me about a safety concern I am not perfect and I miss stuff on occasion.

I was working at the local warplane museum the other day on a C47 I just mentioned that something didn't look quite right to me on one of the engine cowlings and one of the other guys that has been there a lot longer than me made the point to look at it right away and told me always bring stuff up that doesn't look or seem right even though this time it was normal. It is better to check it on the ground than in the air.
 
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We're all too stubborn; warning does little.
Angel Fire, kaxx - the fbo is chock full of warning signs/posters/charts for pilots. With regularity, we ignore them or misread them, and ball up airplanes there.

I have read of many others where a warning was ignored and the flight ended in disaster, too.
I suppose there are occurrences where a warning paid off but I have not heard those stories - and it might be hard to prove a warning helped in those cases.

http://www.ntsb.gov/AviationQuery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20130303X91231&ntsbno=CEN13FA183&akey=1

"...an employee from the FBO questioned the pilot's intent to fly in the windy weather. The pilot indicated that he planned to fly and that the winds would not be a problem. "
snip
"Located in the airport's FBO were posters and literature warning pilots about crosswinds, mountainous terrain, weight and balance, take off performance, density altitude, and runway 17's upgrade."
 
We need to get rid of all warnings. Too many have broken the system if there were none it would make people think. Be a little spooky, but that's OK.
 
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