What to look for in a flying club?

jasc15

jasc15

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Joe
I'm surprised I couldn't find any discussions on this topic. I recently moved to northern NJ and am looking for a flying club. Some non-membership clubs had fairly high rates, but I found a club at MMU with a $1000 buy in and $60/mo. They have a 1976 Skyhawk for $82/Tach hr wet, and a 1976 Cardinal for $90/Tach hr wet. I spoke to the vice pres and he tells me that there are ~20 members and about 12 actually fly often. If I don't like it I can bail in 30 days and get all my money back.

These rates seem pretty low, but they are old planes. What are there some of the 'gotchas' I should be aware of when considering a flying club, and what are some basic features I should look for/avoid?

Thanks for the help.

Joe
 
I don't know much about the club you mention, but I'd definitely recommend these guys... they rotate their fleet between Linden and Caldwell; great planes, good rates. I haven't joined due to general budget constraints, but I've attended a few meetings and gone flying with them. They have all of the "look-for" stuff covered: good equipment that is similarly-equipped, a structured organization with regular meetings, and an egalitarian attitude (no "cliques" of core members, etc.). Not the cheapest club in the area, but I was impressed.

http://www.flyingclub.org/index.html
 
First thing that strikes me is that your not buying someones membership. Does this mean its open to whoever wants to throw 1K into the clubs pot?

Old planes would not bother me, its not about age, but maintenance. I was the treasurer of a club with 10 members and I got out because of maintenance. They didn't want to do any.

If I were you, I'd buy in, what the hell...You've got nothing to lose. 12 members flying 2 planes is not much. When I was treasurer, we did an online booking. It was simple and easy. How does this club secure times and dates for the plane. This is important.

why don't you go to one of their monthly meetings and get a feel for it. You'll probably know pretty quick whether you want to be a part of it or not.
 
Getting billed for tech time seems a little weird to me. I suppose if I were you (and it's in writing that you can get out in 30 days with no $$ loss) I'd join as well. You may want to make sure the annuals and maintenance was kept up on them (as someone else mentioned) wouldn't want to be flying somewhere and have something fall off.
 
saracelica said:
Getting billed for tech time seems a little weird to me.
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Why?

Or were you under the mistaken impression that it was "tech" (the way you spelled it, like a mechanic or something) and not "Tach" (Tachometer) time?
 
@ Rottydaddy: I looked at them too, but I don't meet their experience criteria, and it is a bit expensive for me.

@ Mike Boehler: It is subject to approval by the board, but as I understand it, it is open to anyone who wants to throw their money in the pot. Also, the VP said they only meet 4x a year, but I will be meeting with him tomorrow to take a look at the planes and talk some more about the particulars.

@ Cheesehead: weird. I typed "flying club" into the search, and didnt find those threads :confused:

I was told that both planes' engines were overhauled in 2005, and he said that they are very much on top of maintenance.
 
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sorry typo on my part. Most clubs bill by the hobbs time. (At least all of the clubs I've heard about).
 
Mine too -- if it didn't I would suspect it's really a for-profit arrangement in disguise.
 
saracelica said:
sorry typo on my part. Most clubs bill by the hobbs time. (At least all of the clubs I've heard about).
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Mine bills by tach time too - And I wouldn't have it any other way. Why should I pay full rate for taxi time?

Why does it seem weird to you? Or is it just because you're used to paying hobbs time?
 
saracelica said:
sorry typo on my part. Most clubs bill by the hobbs time. (At least all of the clubs I've heard about).
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I've belonged to two now and both billed by Tach time. As I understand it (and if I'm wrong someone will be around to correct me) most maintenance items are tied to tach time. At least engine overhauls are.

John
 
jsstevens said:
As I understand it (and if I'm wrong someone will be around to correct me) most maintenance items are tied to tach time.
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Everything a plane needs is tach time. the only thing a Hobbs is used for is squeezing the hell out of the renter's wallet.

And logging :D
 
elmetal said:
Everything a plane needs is tach time. the only thing a Hobbs is used for is squeezing the hell out of the renter's wallet.

And logging :D
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Yes, this was how I did it when I was in a club: pay by tach, log by Hobbs.
Makes sense- taxi time may not be much of an issue maintenance and fuel consumption-wise, but it counts towards a pilot's experience.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Mine bills by tach time too - And I wouldn't have it any other way. Why should I pay full rate for taxi time?
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In my attempt not to sound too ignorant, I have not asked this before although I have wondered about it. What is the difference between tach time and hobbs time. Don't they both count the seconds and minutes the engine is running?

My mechanic always uses tach time and one time he told me the reason most pilots use Hobbs time for their log books is because they get to log more time that way.

So I believe it. I just don't understand it. My thanks to anyone that will explain it to me.
 
JOhnH said:
In my attempt not to sound too ignorant, I have not asked this before although I have wondered about it. What is the difference between tach time and hobbs time. Don't they both count the seconds and minutes the engine is running?
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Tach time basically counts engine revolutions. It equals clock time at a specific rpm that depends, I believe, on how the tachometer is calibrated. Disclaimer: not an A&P, don't play one on TV, didn't stay at a HEI last night. ;)

My mechanic always uses tach time and one time he told me the reason most pilots use Hobbs time for their log books is because they get to log more time that way.
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Hobbs time as opposed to what? The Hobbs measures (or is supposed to measure) real clock time, so it's what you're entitled to log anyway. The only difference I can think of is the time you're sitting there with the engine on before you start moving ("with the intention of flight" or something similar is how the reg reads), which Hobbs time includes but which you're not supposed to log. Putting tach time in your pilot logbook makes no sense to me, unless you don't have a Hobbs and forgot to jot down the time you started moving.
 
I'm joining a club as a student here in Buffalo, they seem cheap by comparison. I was pointed to them by a member of this board. They have 4 older planes but I got a chance to look at them, every one is beautiful and look new, perfectly maintained, two just got new engines. 2 Archer II's, 1 Cherokee 140, 1 Cessna 172M. I have the choice between the Cherokee and the 172 for training (which should I pick? Both?) They have 4 hangars, and an A&P member.

Their initial buy in is $600 for a PPL, or $300 for a student (another $300 when you get your license). Then $44 a month plus $50 a month for insurance. They have 4 instructors at $45 an hour, the cherokee and 172 are $28 per tach hour dry, and the Archers are $33 (I believe they said those rates are going up slightly)
 
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JOhnH said:
In my attempt not to sound too ignorant, I have not asked this before although I have wondered about it. What is the difference between tach time and hobbs time. Don't they both count the seconds and minutes the engine is running?

My mechanic always uses tach time and one time he told me the reason most pilots use Hobbs time for their log books is because they get to log more time that way.

So I believe it. I just don't understand it. My thanks to anyone that will explain it to me.
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Hobbs time is, basically, clock time (that the engine is running), the only difference being that it's measured to a resolution of tenths of an hour.

Tach time is also engine-on time, but it's relative to engine RPM (I'll call this the "proportional" type) - Some tachs it's relative to full throttle, others it's relative to cruise, some will just count 1:1 time (and I'll call this the "Binary type") whenever the engine is over a certain RPM (the G1000 tach seems to be a "binary type" tach, for example.)

So - Let's say you have an airplane with a proportional-type tach, that measures relative to the full 2700 RPM takeoff setting. If you cruise at 2300 RPM, in one hour of cruise you'll rack up 0.85 tach hours (most tachs measure hundredths). But, if you're taxiing around at 1000 RPM for an hour you'll only use up .37 hours on the tach. Or, if you're idling at 600 RPM for an hour, only .22 tach hours will show up.

If you're in an airplane with a binary-type tach, one hour of cruise will still be one hour of tach time - But an hour of idling (or any other operations below the cutoff RPM of the tach) will count as zero.

In either case, the Hobbs, which counts 1.0 for every hour the engine is running at all, will tick off more time than the tach will.

Make sense?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
In either case, the Hobbs, which counts 1.0 for every hour the engine is running at all, will tick off more time than the tach will.
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Usually. One 310 I flew had the Hobbes meter hooked up to the squat switch, so you could taxi around all day for free. Coincidentally, this was also at an FBO/club that billed by tach, except on a few aircraft such as aforementioned 310 and some helicopters. But you're certainly correct that it's almost unheard of for the Hobbes meter to register less time than the tachometer.
 
gprellwitz said:
Usually. One 310 I flew had the Hobbes meter hooked up to the squat switch, so you could taxi around all day for free. Coincidentally, this was also at an FBO/club that billed by tach, except on a few aircraft such as aforementioned 310 and some helicopters. But you're certainly correct that it's almost unheard of for the Hobbes meter to register less time than the tachometer.
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True. While most Hobbs meters are wired to an oil pressure switch and don't count time unless the engine is running, I've also flown planes where they are wired to the master or to a squat switch.

I've also seen planes that had more than one - For example, a Seminole that had one wired to the master (for billing) and one that was marked "Maintenance Hobbs" elsewhere in the plane that was wired to a squat switch. Sneaky!
 
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