What time for multi commercial must be with an instructor?

[Warrant]

I am looking for clarification on how much of the time requirements listed in 61.129 for initial multi engine commercial rating must be with an instructor? Specifically the 20 hours of 61.129, b, (3)?

At first I thought of those 20 hours, only the 3 in (v) need to be with instructor in preparation for the test (obviously you would need more to be proficient for the test)

However now I am wondering if all 20 hours need to be with an instructor because in (3) it says 20 hours of training, in the areas listed in 61.127, which goes on saying ground and flight training from an instructor.

I am trying to figure out if the instructor needs to be with on those cross country flights, hence making it cheaper that I don't have to pay him 60 bucks/hr to ride along.

Here is what I am getting at. I am a 240 hour private pilot with my instrument rating (I also have all my cross country done for the single commercial) and I am part of a flying club with fixed gear 172's and 182's, I am trying to plan out my ratings and working the numbers to see if it would be beneficial to do my multi commercial first. Now this would only make sense to me if I got a multi add on (make if VFR only so it would only take about 10hrs) to my private first so all the rest of the time training for multi commercial counts as PIC, and I can fly those required multi cross country's solo.

Then just do my commercial add on in a club plane. That way I am only renting one plane - the mutli engine.

Again it might not make sense to do this since I am already ahead on the single commercial having all my (single engine) cross countrys done.

Any input on my idea would also be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Warrant]

Actually now that I read it a few more times, I believe those 20 hours do have to be dual. However the 10 hours for the 300nm cross country and the 5 for night vfr can be solo.

In which case the cost of the extra checkride for a private multi add on first puts it almost equal to just paying the instructor to ride along on all the cross country's. The only advantage would be that I come out with more multi PIC.

And actually, it looks like, at my experience level the cost of doing any of them in any order are all pretty close.

Any comment on which route would be smoothest in terms of checkrides?

I thought I have read that doing multi commercial first then single add on has a "easier" practical test with less maneuvers to do.

 

[LDJones]

Prep for the multi commercial and do one check ride using both the multi and one of your club singles to get your commercial for both classes. The multi will satisfy the complex requirements. You'll just do a few commercial maneuvers in the single after the multi ride.

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually now that I read it a few more times, I believe those 20 hours do have to be dual.

That is correct, although your training for the instrument rating (which I assume was done in a single) can count for five of the required ten hours of instrument training, leaving only 15 more hours of required training time in the twin.

However the 10 hours for the 300nm cross country and the 5 for night vfr can be solo.

You need only a total of 10 hours of solo/simulated solo time. Five of those have to be at night, and the other five can include the 300nm XC.

In which case the cost of the extra checkride for a private multi add on first puts it almost equal to just paying the instructor to ride along on all the cross country's. The only advantage would be that I come out with more multi PIC.

If you reword that to "paying the instructor to ride along on all the simulated solos," that would be accurate.

I thought I have read that doing multi commercial first then single add on has a "easier" practical test with less maneuvers to do.

You'll still have to do all the maneuvers eventually -- the ones you don't do on the initial ME you'll still have to do on the SE add-on.