What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled field

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I'd expect a savvy CFI to explain to the student that B52 patterns aren't the norm and that the extra room is just a part of the early learning process to be replaced with a tighter circuit after the student becomes comfortable with basic landing techniques. I suspect that a significant portion of the pilots who continue to make excessively large patterns were never informed about this in addition to failing to figure it out for themselves.

I've had that exact explanation with my students. Sure, I bring up the engine. But I mention the benefits of an efficient pattern between less time to make it down to the runway, less cost over flying the huge patterns, less frustration for others who wish to make the pattern more efficient and finally it's going to make you look a lot more professional when you go for the checkride.

Can you fly the huge patterns? Yep. But, why? It's back to the statement I've made so many times on other issues... "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."

 

[wanttaja]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I had this happen during a flight on a ~15-degree day; the engine seemed to cool off too much on final and the prop came to a stop during the landing roll. I had enough momentum left to reach a taxiway, where I had to crawl out and prop the dern thing. Started right up.

Another reason to make the FAA-recommended partial-power stabilized VFR approach.

But then, I always assume the engine may quit anytime. I almost always fly final power-off with bags of altitude, and slip away the excess as needed.

But I can see a lot of advantages to the stabilized approach. Better for the aircraft, for sure. Easier to learn, definitely. But it just means that when the engine *really* quits, the pilot is flying in a very unfamiliar configuration.

At my annual last year, the A&P said my engine was idling a bit faster than standard, and suggested we crank it down a bit. We did it...and I was surprised at how much extra drag the windmilling prop produced.

Pilots accustomed to stabilized approaches are going to find the airplane performs differently when the engine quits, and in a crisis situation, that ain't good. There are a lot of accidents where pilots undershoot their targeted landing spot after an engine failure...but darn few where they overshoot.

I think the issue is a valid one, though: If the engine quits on downwind, wouldn't you rather be close enough to be able to land on the runway? Many of us were taught to always have an emergency landing spot picked out, and a deadstick landing on 3-4 beats merging into the traffic on I-5.

Perhaps, but my accident data analysis (5 years' worth) tells me that folks trying to make the necessarily super-tight pattern required to stay within gliding range of the runway screw up their necessarily power-off approaches and roll their planes into a ball on the runway at an unacceptable rate, while the number of engine failures in the pattern is miniscule.

In how many accident reports does the NTSB attribute a stall-spin to the pilot "trying to make a super-tight pattern to stay within gliding distance of the runway"? It's not a description I've seen anywhere. I had a friend die in a stall-spin accident due to a too-tight pattern, but he wasn't trying to stay within gliding distance of the runway. He was just following tower instructions at Oshkosh.

As far as engines failing in the pattern, my database of 1998-2006 homebuilt accidents shows 396 cases where the NTSB listed a phase of flight and which involved a loss of engine power. Forty-one of them (over 10%) are listed as occurring during the approach. See SEA06LA074 for a failure on final and CHI06CA09 for a failure on downwind, for example.

Stall-spin accidents in the pattern typically happen on the base-to-final turn. I believe this most often is due to a crosswind causing the pilot to overshoot final... they suck the stick back to try tighten the turn.


Ron Wanttaja

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

In how many accident reports does the NTSB attribute a stall-spin to the pilot "trying to make a super-tight pattern to stay within gliding distance of the runway"?

None, but that's not what I said. What I saw in the data were loss of directional control on the runway, underruns, and overruns -- in droves, generally due to an unstabilized approach.

As far as engines failing in the pattern, my database of 1998-2006 homebuilt accidents shows 396 cases where the NTSB listed a phase of flight and which involved a loss of engine power. Forty-one of them (over 10%) are listed as occurring during the approach. See SEA06LA074 for a failure on final and CHI06CA09 for a failure on downwind, for example.

And how does that compare to the number of landing accidents unrelated to engine failure? In any event, my study of Grumman accidents showed that the vast majority of "engine failures" involved either pilot error (e.g., attempting to operate on air rather than avgas) or poor engine maintenance, not inability to glide to the runway after an unpredictable engine malfunction.

Stall-spin accidents in the pattern typically happen on the base-to-final turn. I believe this most often is due to a crosswind causing the pilot to overshoot final... they suck the stick back to try tighten the turn.

If you don't try to fly too tight a pattern, the chances of getting into this position are significantly reduced.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I'd expect a savvy CFI to explain to the student that B52 patterns aren't the norm and that the extra room is just a part of the early learning process to be replaced with a tighter circuit after the student becomes comfortable with basic landing techniques. I suspect that a significant portion of the pilots who continue to make excessively large patterns were never informed about this in addition to failing to figure it out for themselves.

My instructor expected me to stay in the right part of the pattern from the beginning. His first requirement was to learn to fly straight and level in the pattern within a 1/2 mile to mile from the runway. Then get the turns correct and get the speeds right. Finally, he started having me do the radio work. Let's see... Aviate, Navigate, Communicate!

 

[jason]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Kenny,

Can you please stop calling them "the Indians"? The tone that comes across when you write it the way that you do is somewhat offensive. While their lack of proper training may not make them the world's best pilots, I don't see what their country of origin has to do with anything.

I'd hate for an Indian pilot who takes their training very seriously (or any other race for that matter) to stumble into our forum and think that we would base our judgment on anything other than the quality of their instruction and the attitude with which they approach their training.

 

[wanttaja]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

As far as engines failing in the pattern, my database of 1998-2006 homebuilt accidents shows 396 cases where the NTSB listed a phase of flight and which involved a loss of engine power. Forty-one of them (over 10%) are listed as occurring during the approach. See SEA06LA074 for a failure on final and CHI06CA09 for a failure on downwind, for example.

And how does that compare to the number of landing accidents unrelated to engine failure? In any event, my study of Grumman accidents showed that the vast majority of "engine failures" involved either pilot error (e.g., attempting to operate on air rather than avgas) or poor engine maintenance, not inability to glide to the runway after an unpredictable engine malfunction.

To me, it's immaterial to this discussion why the engine fails. The issue at hand is recovery, not avoidance.

The NTSB identifies the phase of flight in about 60% of the cases in my homebuilt-accident database. Of those, 278 are listed as occurring during "landing" or variations of the term ("Landing - Roll", "Landing - flare", etc.). I certainly see some which indicate a problem in glide path control ("The pilot's failure to obtain/maintain the proper descent rate which resulted in a hard landing and separation of the landing gear."), but most seem to be problems which pop up in the last seconds, as the pilot is trying to plant the wheels on terra firma. In about 25% of those landing accidents, the NTSB lists gusting winds or crosswinds as a contributing factor ("The pilot's failure to maintain directional control during the landing. Factors were the sudden wind shift"). Other cases involve improper flares, bounces, failure to maintain directional control, etc.

In both stabilized approaches and traditional approaches, the goal is to arrive over the threshold at a target speed. Even if that's achieved, what happens in that last few feet to the runway is still up in the air, so to speak.

I'll grant you that different planes do better with different techniques. I see you fly Grummans; if it's any consolation, back in the dawn 'o time when I was checked out in Yankees and TR-2s, I was taught that a stabilized approach was preferred (and used it). I see less utility in my current drag bucket of an airplane.

Stall-spin accidents in the pattern typically happen on the base-to-final turn. I believe this most often is due to a crosswind causing the pilot to overshoot final... they suck the stick back to try tighten the turn.

If you don't try to fly too tight a pattern, the chances of getting into this position are significantly reduced.

A base-to-final turn is ninety degrees on ANY tightness of pattern, until you are so close that a Navy-style curving approach is needed. I do not advocate flying THAT close (although they're a pleasure to watch...).

I fly my downwind about a half-mile from the runway, which is close enough that I can make the runway if I lose the power abeam the numbers. Yet it does give me some time on base to scan the extended final to look for traffic.

If you go to Youtube and search for "rwanttaja", you'll see three Fly Baby videos I've posted there. One, "Once Around the Patch", has video from three external camera locations on what is my typical pattern. You'll see there actually IS a base leg in there, somewhere...

Ron Wanttaja

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I fly my downwind about a half-mile from the runway, which is close enough that I can make the runway if I lose the power abeam the numbers. Yet it does give me some time on base to scan the extended final to look for traffic.

What do you do when you're following a Baron necessarily flying a pattern twice as big?

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Kenny,

Can you please stop calling them "the Indians"? The tone that comes across when you write it the way that you do is somewhat offensive. While their lack of proper training may not make them the world's best pilots, I don't see what their country of origin has to do with anything.

I'd hate for an Indian pilot who takes their training very seriously (or any other race for that matter) to stumble into our forum and think that we would base our judgment on anything other than the quality of their instruction and the attitude with which they approach their training.

It's not used as an insult. It's used because they are the cause of the problems I state. I'm not stating opinion unless it's just coincidence that numerous other pilots on the field have the same comments. I'm referring to Indians... not Chinese, Korean, Candian or otherwise. This school only has Indian and some domestic students; three of which are now my students. Go figure!

Today, I heard nearly every Indian student request a "radio check" and an "airport advisory" that included weather data. Are these students not taught how to obtain ASOS information? Are they not taught how to observe the traffic or LISTEN to the radio to hear what's happening? The "unicom guy" is stuck in a little office facing only the runway at midfield and is not outside observing anything. He or she knows no more than the person on the taxiway or run-up area observing downwind, base and final. They don't have the view a tower controller would.

I'm not saying there are not problems with local pilots or even my own students but then I don't have my students depend on someone who is not looking up into the pattern for information. They are looking around all the time and they are listening. They don't clog the frequency with radio checks and they use ASOS every time.

If you think I'm blowing smoke, you're more than welcome to come on down and visit for a day. I'll buy your lunch and dinner while ya watch.

I'm looking forward to the tower's operation. I plan to offer a feed to LiveATC.net and record the audio between controllers and students. I figure that's going to be more than interesting.

Edit: I had this line in earlier but access froze on me and I lost the whole post resulting in trying to recreate what I had previously written...

There are some Indian students who I've seen who fly well, keep good patterns and appear very considerate. But, the number is few. Again, I welcome ya to come find out for yourself.

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

What do you do when you're following a Baron necessarily flying a pattern twice as big?

I'd accommodate the pattern no differently than I consider for other large aircraft. But, common sense dictates a larger aircraft is going to need more space.

The funny thing is... one of my local guys flies a Baron almost daily. Dennis takes less space than all the singles I've been complaining about. He's gotten cut off by singles flying outside of him on downwind and base. Then, there's the G-III that takes less space than the singles I complain of.

 

[tonycondon]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

What do you do when you're following a Baron necessarily flying a pattern twice as big?

ron flies a Flybaby. It only cruises at 45 mph so it shouldnt be no big thing to accomodate a wide pattern

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

ron flies a Flybaby. It only cruises at 45 mph so it shouldnt be no big thing to accomodate a wide pattern

Well, then he's probably doing the right thing for his plane by flying a half-mile pattern. However, my research tells me that bad landings are far more a problem than engine failures in the pattern (something which the FAA concluded a couple of decades ago), and I'll continue to agree with the FAA's promotion of the partial-power stabilized approach rather than power-off approaches as the "standard" method.

 

[wanttaja]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

What do you do when you're following a Baron necessarily flying a pattern twice as big?

Happens pretty often, in fact, there's a flight school with a Seminole at the home drome.

I stay my usual distance out on downwind, and stay far enough back that we'll still have plenty of clearance when he turns base and crosses in front of me. I continue on downwind until he passes me in the opposite direction (when he's on final), then I turn base. I maintain pattern altitude throughout, not starting downhill until I get reasonably close to the runway. That's in consideration to the power-off glide characteristics of my airplane (e.g., throw out a brick and fly formation with it .

On the extended downwind there are open fields below (ROUGH fields, not a good choice, but all there is in this semi-industrial area). If I end up turning final a mile out (as sometimes happens), there's a large mall with lots of open parking. On a long final, there's a road with minimum powerlines (and only moderate traffic, depending on time of day) that parallels the approach path; close-in, there are some big-box stores. Their lots are pretty full, but Lowes' has a side lot that stays pretty empty. Close-in, there's a commuter parking lot just before the airport starts.

When the pattern is going the other way, there are open fields everywhere...though some rather nasty powerlines that some folks have encountered.

(Yup...it LANDED like that after hitting the lines. SEA95LA024.)

The field I fly from is uncontrolled with a real mix in traffic...turbine twins to gyros, with a ton of student training. I know I can't always stay in gliding distance of the runway. I don't begrudge the Seminole its wide pattern, nor do I object to swinging out wide because of long student finals. I keep my patterns tight when I can, and shrug it off when I can't. Semper Gumby!

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Everskyward]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

So Kenny, I thought of you when I read this in the aviation news today...

Maybe you won't have to worry about the Indians much longer. Seems like they might be cutting down on their training, which brings up another point. The foreign students in this country are bringing in money to your airport and the aviation economy. Do you think it would be a better thing if they were gone?

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

So Kenny, I thought of you when I read this in the aviation news today...

Maybe you won't have to worry about the Indians much longer. Seems like they might be cutting down on their training, which brings up another point. The foreign students in this country are bringing in money to your airport and the aviation economy. Do you think it would be a better thing if they were gone?

We've heard from more than a few corporate pilots they don't like dealing with much of what has happened at MVP. My own boss was offered to sell them fuel, to the tune of more than 6,000 gallons a month. He refused. The FBO at the end of the field sells to them but they do not get the discount other customers get.

The attempt is to draw considerable jet traffic back into Conroe after the extension is done next year. Most of it currently goes to Hobby and Intercontinental. Under the current step, 14/32 will be a newly laid 6,000 of concrete. Next year, that gets extended to 7,400 feet and ultimately 8,000 feet. We've been told by many jet operators they will not mix in with a student load.

While there is a school operating at Hobby, it's my understanding they keep a very tight leash on what is and is not permitted by both the airport management, ATC and the school's management. I've had opportunity to speak with that owner and he strikes me as very much a no-BS kind of guy; he'd never permit what happens with the school at my airport. Ric could probably speak more to what he actually sees since he flies out of there.

So, the only ones really gaining anything by being there is MVP. Everyone else would prefer they leave. As far as providing training, I said previously I've gained three of their former students and have another who went there initially than chose to train at my FBO. On top of that, I have another student who went to a similar school at another airport. So, sadly the atmosphere is not exclusive to KCXO or this particular school.

The first photo is made from Microsoft Streets and Trips. It shows the water tower and its relation to the threshold. I think when you look at the actual area, you too may wonder why they go so far out. As I said, not even a regular customer with a G-III flies that far out on downwind. The blue line starts from approximately the current threshold of RWY 19. You'll notice the distance ring indicates the water tower is 1.2 miles north of the threshold and 1.2 miles east of the centerline.

This photo shows a Google image of where the tower is in relation to the threshold. I added red lines where the runway is extended as well as where a taxiway and runup area are are now located.

Below is a picture of the master plan.

The county has some pretty ambitious plans and I have no doubt much of it will go through in pretty short order. The tower is to be done this January and the rebuilding of 14/32 by this fall.

This picture is a couple years old. It's a cool airport to fly out of and it's gonna get even better.

 

[jason]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

It's not used as an insult. It's used because they are the cause of the problems I state. I'm not stating opinion unless it's just coincidence that numerous other pilots on the field have the same comments. I'm referring to Indians... not Chinese, Korean, Candian or otherwise. This school only has Indian and some domestic students; three of which are now my students. Go figure!

Today, I heard nearly every Indian student request a "radio check" and an "airport advisory" that included weather data. Are these students not taught how to obtain ASOS information? Are they not taught how to observe the traffic or LISTEN to the radio to hear what's happening? The "unicom guy" is stuck in a little office facing only the runway at midfield and is not outside observing anything. He or she knows no more than the person on the taxiway or run-up area observing downwind, base and final. They don't have the view a tower controller would.

I'm not saying there are not problems with local pilots or even my own students but then I don't have my students depend on someone who is not looking up into the pattern for information. They are looking around all the time and they are listening. They don't clog the frequency with radio checks and they use ASOS every time.

If you think I'm blowing smoke, you're more than welcome to come on down and visit for a day. I'll buy your lunch and dinner while ya watch.

I'm looking forward to the tower's operation. I plan to offer a feed to LiveATC.net and record the audio between controllers and students. I figure that's going to be more than interesting.

Edit: I had this line in earlier but access froze on me and I lost the whole post resulting in trying to recreate what I had previously written...

There are some Indian students who I've seen who fly well, keep good patterns and appear very considerate. But, the number is few. Again, I welcome ya to come find out for yourself.

Kenny,

I'm neither doubting that they are bad pilots or that the school is being irresponsible in it's training activity. I don't need to come down there. I believe you. All that I'm saying is that every time you call them you call them "the Indians" right before you rail on them you come across rather poorly. What is wrong with saying "the students from the other school"?

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Kenny,

I'm neither doubting that they are bad pilots or that the school is being irresponsible in it's training activity. I don't need to come down there. I believe you. All that I'm saying is that every time you call them you call them "the Indians" right before you rail on them you come across rather poorly. What is wrong with saying "the students from the other school"?

Because the school is at least 95% Indian students and its owner was born and raised in India. Close enough?

But, if it makes you feel better I'll refer to the idiots from the other school... CFIs and management, inclusive. After all, they allow this stuff to happen.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

The attempt is to draw considerable jet traffic back into Conroe after the extension is done next year. Most of it currently goes to Hobby and Intercontinental.

While I think it's nice that the airport is doing so many improvements, I don't think you will take too much traffic away from Hobby. It's 40 air miles away, on the other side of Houston. Generally speaking, passengers want to go to the closest airport to their ultimate destination which has enough concrete for the airplane to land and take off from, controlled or not. At least that's the way it seems to work around here.

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

While I think it's nice that the airport is doing so many improvements, I don't think you will take too much traffic away from Hobby. It's 40 air miles away, on the other side of Houston. Generally speaking, passengers want to go to the closest airport to their ultimate destination which has enough concrete for the airplane to land and take off from, controlled or not. At least that's the way it seems to work around here.

That's just it... it is so far away. Since 14/32 has been out, many have had to go down there. We'll draw those folks back and much more with a longer runway. The northern portion of Houston is growing like crazy and we are much more convenient than even Hooks or West Houston. After the extension is done, we'll have more runway than Hooks. The Woodlands is one of the more affluent areas around Houston as is the western areas around Conroe along with Lake Conroe. The market is there. We just need to offer the amenities without the hassles of getting to them. Hence, the desire to be rid of MVP.

We may even draw a good portion of Ric's company back up there. Their office is located at CXO.

 

[jason]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Because the school is at least 95% Indian students and its owner was born and raised in India. Close enough?

And I'm sure that the owner and 95% of the students are your school are white, but that doesn't mean that they should all start referring to you as "the whiteys down at the other end of the airport". It has nothing to do with their origin, it only has to do with the fact that they're irresponsible in their training activity.

But, if it makes you feel better I'll refer to the idiots from the other school... CFIs and management, inclusive. After all, they allow this stuff to happen.

That's much better.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

That's just it... it is so far away. Since 14/32 has been out, many have had to go down there. We'll draw those folks back and much more with a longer runway. The northern portion of Houston is growing like crazy and we are much more convenient than even Hooks or West Houston. After the extension is done, we'll have more runway than Hooks. The Woodlands is one of the more affluent areas around Houston as is the western areas around Conroe along with Lake Conroe. The market is there. We just need to offer the amenities without the hassles of getting to them. Hence, the desire to be rid of MVP.

I don't think that it would be logical to use KHOU as an alternative to KCXO. KDWH would be the better alternative. Anyway, I think it's interesting that you are here advocating getting rid of the little guys to make room for those nasty business jets who drive up all the prices.

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I don't think that it would be logical to use KHOU as an alternative to KCXO. KDWH would be the better alternative. Anyway, I think it's interesting that you are here advocating getting rid of the little guys to make room for those nasty business jets who drive up all the prices.

Hey, I have my FBO to think of! We're the oldest and most reputable on the field. I want that business in here as those contacts breed contacts with executives who may want lessons. Considering a third of my current students are the affluent, achiever type... well, you get the idea.

Right now, the bigger jets have to go to HOU because their OpSpecs won't let them operate out on a 5,000 runway. Ric said that's the case with his operation. That will change with the new runway.

It is rather neat pointing to a Lear 60, Hawker 600 or G-III and saying... "THAT'S how a short-field takeoff is accomplished!" Add to that, owners of two of these jets have their captains takeoff that way for the thrill when there are no company clients aboard.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Right now, the bigger jets have to go to HOU because their OpSpecs won't let them operate out on a 5,000 runway.

That doesn't seem to keep jets out of Santa Monica (4,973' long) much to the chagrin of the airport neighbors. Granted, 5,000' is getting towards the short side for a lot of jets... except for my new airplane which is the queen of short fields.

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

That doesn't seem to keep jets out of Santa Monica (4,973' long) much to the chagrin of the airport neighbors. Granted, 5,000' is getting towards the short side for a lot of jets... except for my new airplane which is the queen of short fields.

One of those renegade corporate pilots, eh?

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

That's much better.

kudos on a fine compromise.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

except for my new airplane which is the queen of short fields.

Mari,

What's your new airplane? I gather it's a Citation of some sort?

 

[Everskyward]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I gather it's a Citation of some sort?

CE-680, Citation Sovereign. We are getting to know each other right now. It has great short/high altitude field performance for an airplane that size (30,300 lbs), which is why I was teasing Kenny about it here. 5,000 foot runway? No problem.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

CE-680, Citation Sovereign. We are getting to know each other right now. It has great short/high altitude field performance for an airplane that size (30,300 lbs), which is why I was teasing Kenny about it here. 5,000 foot runway? No problem.

So it looks like once you're cleared for takeoff, in 12 minutes you can be 70 miles away at 35,000 feet going 452 knots? Nice. (After burning a bit over 100 gallons of Jet-A, of course.) And getting it down in well under 3,000 is quite impressive too.

How's it compare to the birds you were flying?

 

[Everskyward]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

How's it compare to the birds you were flying?

This is the first really modern airplane I have ever flown. The Lears were late 1970s to early 1980s vintage and the Hawker was a 1993, where the Sovereign had less than 10 hours on it when I flew it for the first time. It was designed to be a simple airplane as far as its systems go, and it's easy to fly, although heavier on the controls, than the other jets I have flown. The short field/high DA performance is better than the 35, much better than the Hawker and light years better than the 55. This is a good thing for us in Colorado. The thing I had to get used to is that the airplane is a flying computer, actually a number of computers. There is a lot of logic built in to keep you out of trouble, but you have to know what it is telling you. I think the biggest challenge for me is the MCDU which is like an FMS with more features. At least it seems that way to me. I'm not really a button-pusher by nature, but I think I've got most of it figured out now...

 

[gprellwitz]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Because the school is at least 95% Indian students and its owner was born and raised in India. Close enough?

Nope!

But, if it makes you feel better I'll refer to the idiots from the other school... CFIs and management, inclusive. After all, they allow this stuff to happen.

That's much better.

Yup! Thanks! (This was really bugging me too!)

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Nope!

Yup! Thanks! (This was really bugging me too!)

Grant, the offer goes... a night in a decent hotel and dinner on me.

I just got back with one student... while holding second in line for departure, an "INDIAN" student from MVP taxied into position and held while another plane was on final and the previous plane was still on the runway.

I guess that was ok.

 

[gprellwitz]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Grant, the offer goes... a night in a decent hotel and dinner on me.

I just got back with one student... while holding second in line for departure, an "INDIAN" student from MVP taxied into position and held while another plane was on final and the previous plane was still on the runway.

I guess that was ok.

See your PM.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Grant, the offer goes... a night in a decent hotel and dinner on me.

I just got back with one student... while holding second in line for departure, an "INDIAN" student from MVP taxied into position and held while another plane was on final and the previous plane was still on the runway.

I guess that was ok.

Do you think it's some sort of cultural thing? Poor Flight School Supervision? What?

BTW -- there is a local DoD defense contractor that gets preference on contracts because the owner is a minority.

His minority status is due to his being from the second most populous country in the world....

 

[gprellwitz]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Do you think it's some sort of cultural thing? Poor Flight School Supervision? What?

I put the blame squarely on the flight school management and their instructors.

 

[jason]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

I put the blame squarely on the flight school management and their instructors.

 

[wsuffa]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Folks, a reminder from the Management Council: let's leave race out of it. From my thousands of hours of experience race/national origin has NOTHING whatsoever to do with stupid behavior in the pattern.

POA needs to stay a place where we're above race/national origin in our discussions.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[KennyFlys]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Do you think it's some sort of cultural thing? Poor Flight School Supervision? What?

BTW -- there is a local DoD defense contractor that gets preference on contracts because the owner is a minority.

His minority status is due to his being from the second most populous country in the world....

It is an attitude that comes from the origin and is allowed to continue unchecked.

I look at it very much like the chain of links in an accident. If the chain remains unchecked, it only gets worse.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What several thousand hours tells me about non standard entries at uncontrolled f

Thread closed due to failure to heed warning in post #155.