What is too windy for training in a 172?

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JasonM

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What wind speed would you not get training in as a student pilot or what wind speed would you not train a student pilot as the CFI?

I understand the crosswind limitations, so lets assume that is not an issue, we can takeoff and land into the wind and its just windy.
 
I've never declined an opportunity to go out with my CFI in challenging conditions. Early on (probably my 5th or 6th lesson) we had 28-30kt winds. At the time, being even more naive than I am now, I though the lesson would be scrubbed. Lucky for me, it wasn't. It turned out be one of my most memorable learning opportunities... I got a lot of practice turning around a point in windy conditions and a good intro to crosswind landings.

This probably doesn't directly answer your question, other than I would never pass up the chance to go out in challenging conditions if I have a more experienced pilot with me. For the record, my CFI received an award for 50 years of safe flying a couple years ago, so I guess it also comes down to how much you trust your instructor.
 
I received dual on a 35g45 day. It was primarily straight down the runway. Landed at darn near a stop!
 
My instructor said he and a student went up in a 172 with gusts to 45. Little strong for my taste.
 
Sounds good to me. I would rather learn in rough conditions with some experience beside me as well. Guess if my instructor ever says its to windy, I'll have to plea with him a little. :) We have been seeing a lot of 20+ winds and I don't want to cancel my training on a nice sunny day if its not a cross wind issue, but I also don't want to be stupid if its not a good idea.
 
Folks, it's not the wind, it's the crosswind component...assuming you can taxi back to the hangar without ending up on your back. :)
 
I remember an early solo of 080@28 and the runway was 9. I had planned on doing touch and goes but decided to go to the practice area instead. I don't think that is too much wind, 28 knots.
 
RoscoeT said:
Folks, it's not the wind, it's the crosswind component...assuming you can taxi back to the hangar without ending up on your back. :)
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Go fly in the mountains and nearly knock yourself out due to a seat belt coming lose, not fun. 20 knots of a nice steady crosswind component, I'll take any day over 20G38 down the runway. I hate strong gusts.
 
Too high of winds? Anything that makes you or your instructor feel a safe flight training session might not be assured.

In the beginning very little wind can scratch a flight towards the end and if it does not scare the jeepers out of you then more might be appropriate.
 
I'm not convinced gaining confidence to fly in dangerous conditions is a good thing. I've learned to stay home and be confident that it was a good decision to not fly..
 
It's different for everybody. However, I feel it's good to get out of your comfort zone a bit, but not to a point where it becomes dangerous.

Case-in-point, a couple years back I went to practice 15 kt. crosswind landings solo, and for some reason it kinda freaked me out and I stayed away from much of a crosswind. At my new job, I needed to get checked out in the 172RG for a flight the next day, and as luck would have it, 35tksG40s, x-wind component at 28. Had an instructor that was confident, so I felt fine. Since then, I've put myself up in similar winds a couple times to get the practice.

For training, just so long as the instructor is fine with the winds, I feel it's good to not cancel on a day when you might otherwise.
 
acluffpoa said:
I'm not convinced gaining confidence to fly in dangerous conditions is a good thing. I've learned to stay home and be confident that it was a good decision to not fly..
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For me, the point of it isn't to train them to think, "Well, it's dangerous, but I'll go fly anyway." But rather more along the lines of, "I've got little fuel, can't make it to an alternate with more direct winds, I've got to land here. But that's not a problem, I've had the training and am confident I can get down safely." To me, that's a big distinction that the instructor must make the student aware of.
 
It depends on where you are in your training. Presolo it's probably not all that productive to train in strong, gusty winds. Down the road I'd consider it a plus to have a challenging day.

When I was learning my first instructors cancelled if the flag moved or more than three clouds appeared. I finally found a crop duster to teach me and nothing short of active thunderstorms kept us on the ground. As he said, "If you're going to fly in North Dakota you better know how to fly wind!"
 
What Jonesy said -- it depends on where you are in your training. For a first flight, I'd avoid any significant turbulence, and strong winds usually mean significant mechanical turbulence. For a cross-country late in training, I'd probably go with quite a bit of wind. IOW, there's no way to give a particular limit in this case, although many schools do it anyway in order to avoid quibbling and make the insurance company happier (another way of saying "getting the insurance company to lower its rates").
 
My checkride was probably 20 gusting to 30. (My CFI wouldn't let me cancel-I was not a happy camper)

...after I got my private, I took off for some pattern work with the winds at 12 knots and 2 landings later it was 45 degree crosswinds gusting to 25.
 
Agreed. It's never fun to get hammered by the bumps, but at some point the student should know it's probably gonna happen and be able to handle it.

LDJones said:
It depends on where you are in your training. Presolo it's probably not all that productive to train in strong, gusty winds. Down the road I'd consider it a plus to have a challenging day.

When I was learning my first instructors cancelled if the flag moved or more than three clouds appeared. I finally found a crop duster to teach me and nothing short of active thunderstorms kept us on the ground. As he said, "If you're going to fly in North Dakota you better know how to fly wind!"
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I am not afraid of the turbulence or wind, the only thing that scares me about that is if the plane will stay together. :)

The forecast tomorrow is to be 16Kts which from the forecast direction, would put a 15Kts crosswind on the active tomorrow. Should I still go and learn from this or call it a day and wait till next week.
 
The flight school I'm using has a 20/10 limitation on solo work for flight training. The CFIs can choose their own limitations for dual instruction, but most won't go up if the crosswind approaches or exceeds 10 knots.
 
I landed my 172 one time when the winds were so strong I had to use full power on final just to get to the runway! Was pretty much straight down the runway though. Wasn't much of a rollout. Still I didn't enjoy much.:no:
 
acluffpoa said:
I'm not convinced gaining confidence to fly in dangerous conditions is a good thing. I've learned to stay home and be confident that it was a good decision to not fly..
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you ever been to Kansas, Texas or Oklahoma? If you can't take wind you don' fly very often - I know it gets windy in the intermountain west as well - but they are well experienced lining up the runways to the wind - in KS/TX/OK the wind pretty much pays no attention to the numbers on the runways.
 
As long as I could avoid going too far over crosswind restrictions, I used to joke "As long as it's not blowing parts off the airplane".
And then one day it blew a part off the airplane.
I have since dialed it back a little.
 
Shepherd said:
I used to joke "As long as it's not blowing parts off the airplane".
And then one day it blew a part off the airplane.
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:eek: :yikes:

Maybe this is a better opportunity to use good judgement. 15Kts crosswind is the max for the plane and I prob should respect that.
 
JasonM said:
:eek: :yikes:

Maybe this is a better opportunity to use good judgement. 15Kts crosswind is the max for the plane and I prob should respect that.
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It's in no way an airplane limitation. It's just the highest the test pilot's will do. That's why it's called the maximum DEMONSTRATED crosswind, not maximum crosswind limitation. When done correctly, the plane can handle quite a bit more.
 
How much crosswind can a 172 handle on taxi and other ground ops and still retain control? Just wonder if you were to successfully land in a 30+ crosswind, what speed will keep you from controlling the airplane on the ground?
 
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HighFlyingA380 said:
It's in no way an airplane limitation. It's just the highest the test pilot's will do. That's why it's called the maximum DEMONSTRATED crosswind, not maximum crosswind limitation. When done correctly, the plane can handle quite a bit more.
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Yup that! Out of rudder? Thats your limit.

As others have said, it all depends on what is needed for the training event. The 172 per the OP question will handle quite a bit. Others have given some actual numbers, I cannot remember those things, but its up there. Get some training, airplanes need wind to fly.
 
Ron Levy said:
strong winds usually mean significant mechanical turbulence.
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Not everywhere, Ron. I've flown in extremely windy conditions out in KS many times with nary a bump. There's no hills to stir the air. One day at Liberal, it was 35G45 and smooth as silk coming in to land.

Liberal Kansas...now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one! :)
 
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I don't remember what the speed of the wind was for the worst crosswind landing I ever made, but I can remember having to land diagonally across the runway to have enough rudder to survive. It took me two tries to get it on the ground.
I also remember the guy behind me didn't make it.
 
JasonM said:
How much crosswind can a 172 handle on taxi and other ground ops and still retain control? Just wonder if you were to successfully land in a 30+ crosswind, what speed will keep you from controlling the airplane on the ground?
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This. It would suck to make a nice landing only to flip over when turning off the runway.
 
JasonM said:
What wind speed would you not get training in as a student pilot or what wind speed would you not train a student pilot as the CFI?

I understand the crosswind limitations, so lets assume that is not an issue, we can takeoff and land into the wind and its just windy.
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It depends A LOT on where you are in your training.

If you're learning the pattern and normal landings, a lot of wind will interfere with that. If you've got those down, pushing your limits with an instructor is the way to go. But that's not to say you should jump from calm winds straight into winds gusting to the stall speed. Take it a little more gently than that....
 
timwinters said:
One day at Liberal, it was 35G45 and smooth as silk coming in to land.
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That must have been a real fun taxi with a 44 KCAS clean stall speed (we are talking about 172s, right?). You could take off with the parking brake set. For a moment, anyway.
 
MAKG1 said:
That must have been a real fun taxi with a 44 KCAS clean stall speed (we are talking about 172s, right?). You could take off with the parking brake set. For a moment, anyway.
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Well, in my case it was a 182.
 
Well, today was 15G20Kts with decent turbulence. Glad I did it, but now I think I'll stick to more calm weather. About 1 hour in and I started feeling sea sick a little. I'd say it was worth the experience at my stage, but I have a lot more to learn and can totally see how these conditions will be hurting that progress. Its definitely a battle up there and has brought on a new appreciation for aviation.
 
I had just landed at a small airport in my home state and was parking near the pilot lounge when I noticed an airplane upside down next to the runway that I had just landed on. I ran the couple hundred yards to the plane and got the door open and helped the pilot out of the airplane. He was shaking a little but was other wise OK. He started saying that the crosswind was to much and he wasn't trained for it. He was traveling cross country from the East coast to Denver.

Here in Nebraska 20k winds are pretty normal and in my state most airports only have one runway. So being proficient at cross wind landings is a requirement.

A good instructor will make their students experience and be proficient at cross wind landing up to the max recommended crosswind for their aircraft. For the Skyhawk that would be 15 knots.

Pilots being trained on the coasts need to understand that high winds can be very common in the central part of the country. The strongest winds I have ever experienced were in Montana, Texas, Kansas, and Nebraska. On any given day 40-50 knots winds could happen. Even higher winds are not uncommon.
 
retman, I couldn't imagine flying a 172 in 40-50 knots at runway elevation. I live in the Appalachians and it is often very windy here in these hills as well. I'm definitely going to have to learn this stuff. To be brutally honest, I don't think I want to fly solo until I feel confident in greater wind conditions than I was in today. I know damn well that when I get my PPL, my days will be greatly limited if I cant fly in this stuff.
 
kclimie said:
The flight school I'm using has a 20/10 limitation on solo work for flight training. The CFIs can choose their own limitations for dual instruction, but most won't go up if the crosswind approaches or exceeds 10 knots.
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You will need some training after you get your PPL. Those limits are arbitrary and rather low. Even if you are only a fair weather flyer the weather will do things contrary to the forecast. There is a significant probability you will encounter winds well above those limits at some point in your life as a pilot.

I set limits for wind based on the student, airplane and runway. Having a fixed limit will do nothing but diminish the quality of your training.
 
JasonM said:
What wind speed would you not get training in as a student pilot or what wind speed would you not train a student pilot as the CFI?

I understand the crosswind limitations, so lets assume that is not an issue, we can takeoff and land into the wind and its just windy.
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Half the cruising speed of the airplane would be nice for a training flight, especially after hour 20 or so when you have a better grasp and understanding of things. We did a couple of my training flights in 60+ kt winds when the Santana's were blowing, kinda cool to do a hover landing in a 152. A couple of good high wind flights should be in everyone's primary training.
 
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