What is the rule?

captvikki

captvikki

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captvikki
Ok. I was flying with my instructor doing some power-off spirals to land.
As my instructor announced that we were at 4,000 (we had previously asked if anyone was in the pattern) doing a power-off w/spiral to land some guy in a Cub announces he is taking off.

He was very nice and said he would go out north while I spiraled in. We never did land (I am still working on this). The cub came back in and reported he was downwind for 11. My instructor told him we would loop around the east end of 29 since we were so much faster. Then we reported that we were downwind. The cub landed, I came in fast and high (what else is new). The cub was in the turnaround area waiting to back taxi, when we passed, he gave me a strange look. When I get in the FBO the next day, I am told the guy was furious because "I almost killed him" - a direct quote. This has created quite a stir in the FBO.
 
captvikki said:
Ok. I was flying with my instructor doing some power-off spirals to land.
As my instructor announced that we were at 4,000 (we had previously asked if anyone was in the pattern) doing a power-off w/spiral to land some guy in a Cub announces he is taking off.

He was very nice and said he would go out north while I spiraled in. We never did land (I am still working on this). The cub came back in and reported he was downwind for 11. My instructor told him we would loop around the east end of 29 since we were so much faster. Then we reported that we were downwind. The cub landed, I came in fast and high (what else is new). The cub was in the turnaround area waiting to back taxi, when we passed, he gave me a strange look. When I get in the FBO the next day, I am told the guy was furious because "I almost killed him" - a direct quote. This has created quite a stir in the FBO.
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Best handled by tracking the guy down and saying, "I'm sorry -- was there something I did?"

Most likely the whisper-down-the-lane message passing changed it from an idle comment to "That guy nearly killed me!"

As to the power off landings -- are you comfortable slipping the airplane?
 
Not too uncomfortable on a "normal" landing (whatever that is). I never thought of a slip that is a great idea...I was high and fast.....
 
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captvikki said:
Not too uncomfortable on a "normal" landing (whatever that is). I never thought of a slip because I was high and fast.
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A slip will increase drag and the descent rate while reducing the increased speed that will happen if you simply point the nose down at the runway.

I assume you are a student pilot?
 
I never do simulated emergencies when there are others in the pattern. I prefer not to turn a simulated emergency into a real one.
 
Yes I am a student, and am about to take my check ride. This really unnerved me. The guy has threatened to "report the incident". My instructor says he is crazy.
 
Time for a face-to-face with the other pilot and your instructor. Get it all out on the table and see where safety could have been compromised, and what to do to improve.
 
captvikki said:
Yes I am a student, and am about to take my check ride. This really unnerved me. The guy has threatened to "report the incident". My instructor says he is crazy.
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Welcome to the board!

Sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

I agree with Steingar that emergency ops should be conducted in an empty pattern (better yet, a not-too-busy towered field).

Have your instructor help you work on slips and you can take care of that too high on final thing in a jiffy!
 
Yeah, slips beat the hell out of circling. Helps to see what you're landing in. I can't imagine why your instructor would teach you anything different. The only time I do circle to land ops is when I put the aircraft about 2-3K ft above the airport and pull the throttle. It is a smallish game I play, where I have to land with full flaps within the first 500 feet of the runway. If I can't I have to do it again until I get it right. The idea is to really get used to the glide characteristics of my aircraft, and make an emergency landing something I'm sort of used to. It has shown me just how little glide my Cherokee has. But I don't do it if I see or hear any other aircraft in the pattern anywhere. You have enough to worry about with your private and probably don't need to do this to any degree at all. I agree with the other guys, slips are what you should be doing.
 
From your posts, it is not at all clear what bothered the Cub pilot, so I can't comment on that. That said...

Even if the Cub pilot reports whatever it is he thinks your instructor did wrong, it's your instructor's problem not yours, since you were not the PIC, so it's best to let your instructor handle this. It would be bad for you if you went and said something to the Cub pilot, and that came back to bite your instructor (who was, after all, the PIC). What I hope your instructor does is track down that other pilot and find out what concerned him, and then sort it out with either education or an apology, as appropriate. I think it's definitely not your place to do that other than as your instructor's wingman on that mission, since as a trainee under instruction and not the PIC, what happened isn't your responsibility. If your instructor just ignores it, well, it's not your responsibility.

BTW, since there's no assurance that your engine failure will occur at a quiet airport, and a busy nontowered airport may result in having to deal with no-radio planes who don't know you're having an emergency, I think that a couple of practice emergency landings at busier airports is essential -- especially since that may be what happens on your checkride, which is a lot more of a certainty in the near future than a real engine failure.
 
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The next time you see the cub in the pattern, buzzzz him, and flip him off, he will be a whole lot easier to find and have a face to face discussion after that.
 
captvikki said:
Yes I am a student, and am about to take my check ride. This really unnerved me. The guy has threatened to "report the incident". My instructor says he is crazy.
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FWIW, every post I have seen that started with "I was spiraling down" has led to a contentious outcome for the pilot(s) involved at the time, followed by another one on the forum to which it was posted.
 
captvikki said:
Yes I am a student, and am about to take my check ride. This really unnerved me. The guy has threatened to "report the incident". My instructor says he is crazy.
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Your instructor is right. Unfortunately, unless you only fly out of your own private airport, you're going to come across these types.

In the flying club that I am part of, I got yelled at by one of the old fogeys for "flying the plane too much." According to him, an airplane's place is in the hangar, and should only to go on 15 minute flights down the river to sit around all day and fly home, whereas I take them all over (longest flight so far was about 600-650 nm straight-line distance).

My point is, don't let these people get to you. This shouldn't unnerve you (although I certainly understand why it does), it's just an unfortunate part of aviation. And, has been stated, it really is your instructor's problem. We've all been yelled at during lessons for various reasons. Everyone's got an opinion, and many people feel a need to be jerks to others because their opinion differs.

As others have said, welcome to the board! Keep flying! :)
 
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well, there are too many reasons to make a post starting with "I was
spiraling down" when nothing happens.
 
docmirror said:
Time for a face-to-face with the other pilot and your instructor. Get it all out on the table and see where safety could have been compromised, and what to do to improve.
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If there's a DPE on the field, they might serve as an honest broker.

I think you can ask a the FAA Safety Team for help, but I honestly don't know how the "counseling" portion of the program works. I'll try to ask my Safety Program Manager today.
 
captvikki said:
Yes I am a student, and am about to take my check ride. This really unnerved me. The guy has threatened to "report the incident". My instructor says he is crazy.
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It takes all kinds Vikki. I, like, Ron, cannot tell from your post what got the other plane's pilot's knickers in a knot. You were at an uncontrolled airport, making position and intention announcement in a see and avoid situation. Sounds like you did nothing wrong at all. I would say from what I know right now of the 'incident' that your CFI is spot on.

As for doing emergency work in an empty pattern...While I agree that would be the best it is not always practicable. In the Chicago area where I fly, on weekends the airports are all very busy with flight training. The patterns can be very full. If emergency procedures such as power off approaches were only practiced on empty patterns no one would ever get practice. The key is to work with the traffic flow and for everyone to be aware of what is going on. Sometime there is too much traffic and you will have to knock it off though.

At any rate welcome to the board.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think you can ask a the FAA Safety Team for help, but I honestly don't know how the "counseling" portion of the program works. I'll try to ask my Safety Program Manager today.
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You'll need a time machine to find an ASPM, but you can probably talk with your FAASTeam Manager today without that.;)
 
TMetzinger said:
If there's a DPE on the field, they might serve as an honest broker.

I think you can ask a the FAA Safety Team for help, but I honestly don't know how the "counseling" portion of the program works. I'll try to ask my Safety Program Manager today.
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Meh, I'm not that way. I would rather leave the three-letter crowd out of the discussion until, or unless there is a fairly clear violation of the regs. If it's two guys disagreeing about a pattern approach, or this spiral thing, sit down together and fix it. If you can't, always an escalation path if needed.
 
Second that. Welcome aboard. I agree with Scott, I see no foul on what happened. just because I do something a certain way doesn't mean everyone has to.
 
It is an odd reaction on the Cub pilot's part... I'd suggest being dip[lomatic if you ever discuss this with him face-to-face, but hold your ground, because you did nothing wrong, as far as I can tell.
It kinda sounds like he was annoyed that he had to use his brain to stay safe while you did a somewhat "nonstandard" thing (although spirals to TPA are normal engine-out drills that even "non-students" should practice once in a while). Then, while recovering from this trauma, he decided your approach was too unkempt for his liking, and decided to share his opinion with others.
Very unfair, considering you are training... in addition to calmly reminding him that you and your CFI did nothing highly unusual or dangerous, you might want to practice those slips on final (very useful sometimes, and fun) and show this guy that you could probably slip that Cub in better than he could. :D
That would humble him better than flipping him the bird or whatever.
 
Ron Levy said:
You'll need a time machine to find an ASPM, but you can probably talk with your FAASTeam Manager today without that.;)
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Yeah, yeah, yeah... :redface:

docmirror said:
Meh, I'm not that way. I would rather leave the three-letter crowd out of the discussion until, or unless there is a fairly clear violation of the regs. If it's two guys disagreeing about a pattern approach, or this spiral thing, sit down together and fix it. If you can't, always an escalation path if needed
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And Doc, a DPE was my first choice because they generally are respected "leaders" on the field, know most everybody, and they aren't FAA employees. It's a good way to keep it really informal.
 
BTW, Vikki, this really is your CFI's problem, not yours, although you can certainly watch and learn from the sidelines as a student.

Oh, and I'm wondering about the captain part...I had at first thought that you were captain, as in flying, but I guess not?
 
Spirals and slips, practice everything and learn them well. Ask your CFI about spiralling slips and their radical altitude loss that can be useful in emergencies.
 
captvikki said:
Ok. I was flying with my instructor doing some power-off spirals to land.
As my instructor announced that we were at 4,000 (we had previously asked if anyone was in the pattern) doing a power-off w/spiral to land some guy in a Cub announces he is taking off.

He was very nice and said he would go out north while I spiraled in. We never did land (I am still working on this). The cub came back in and reported he was downwind for 11. My instructor told him we would loop around the east end of 29 since we were so much faster. Then we reported that we were downwind. The cub landed, I came in fast and high (what else is new). The cub was in the turnaround area waiting to back taxi, when we passed, he gave me a strange look. When I get in the FBO the next day, I am told the guy was furious because "I almost killed him" - a direct quote. This has created quite a stir in the FBO.
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I've gotta say that from your description it doesn't seem like you or your CFI did anything wrong. You kept the guy informed about what you were doing and he agreed to stay out of your way. This guy sounds like a drama queen. If it's not someone you are going to be dealing with frequently I would blow it off and not worry about it. Seems like your instructor did already.
 
I would bet the guy was upset because of the TIME you were taking and not how you were flying. Some of these people think idling on the ramp behind someone is just wasting money; kind of like the guy who honks his horn at you as soon as the light turns green. As long as he was clear of the runway as you were landing, you're okay.
Let your instructor (or his boss) deal with the NUT! And while the single digit salute might make you feel better, it will almost certainly inflame the situation (unless of course the nut has forgotten all about it).
 
Diana said:
Welcome to the forum Vikki. :)



Good luck on your check ride. :yes: Let us know how it goes. :)



I hope that you were being facetious about that.
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Yes, I was kidding. The flight last night was great. My instructor said everything you all have said. I thought the answer was funny. I have a great instructor and everyone at the field knows him as an honorable and safe pilot.
 
captvikki said:
Yes, I was kidding. The flight last night was great. My instructor said everything you all have said. I thought the answer was funny. I have a great instructor and everyone at the field knows him as an honorable and safe pilot.
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If you were only kidding about that answer, then clearly you aren't a Boston driver. ;)

Glad that you had a great flight last night and this has (hopefully) blown over for you.
 
Diana said:
BTW,

Oh, and I'm wondering about the captain part...I had at first thought that you were captain, as in flying, but I guess not?
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Sorry to confuse everyone...I was a Capt. in the USAF....flight test engineer. Thought I would switch seats (like up front!) for awhile.:)
 
captvikki said:
Sorry to confuse everyone...I was a Capt. in the USAF....flight test engineer. Thought I would switch seats (like up front!) for awhile.:)
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Very cool!
 
captvikki said:
Sorry to confuse everyone...I was a Capt. in the USAF....flight test engineer. Thought I would switch seats (like up front!) for awhile.:)
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The view is always better up front. :D

Welcome to the board, great to have another gal on board... this place seems to have a disporpotionaly high number of female pilots. It's a good thing!

Oh and I love your photo... good place to take the picture but why did you crop out that gourgous engine that I know is just off the the left in the background??? B)

Missa
 
Missa said:
Oh and I love your photo... good place to take the picture but why did you crop out that gourgous engine that I know is just off the the left in the background??? B)
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Ha! Good catch, I recognize that tent (and the little bit of the engine that's been cropped).

I have a similar picture that I ought to post. (EDIT: Posted in my profile)

Next year you'll have to come by the tent and say hi, I'm sure Missa and I will be there again.
 
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