What constitutes one circuit of a hold?

alfadog

alfadog

Final Approach
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alfadog
Let us say that I want to fly the published hold at the IAF of an RNAV approach then shoot the approach. Let us say that I will hold west and approach from the north (left turns). Assume I will enter parallel. I call up approach and tell them I want to fly the published hold one circuit then shoot a practice RNAV approach. What will ATC have understood me to say and how do I proceed?

BTW, this is all VFR with a safety pilot.

1. They will consider that I have flown one circuit when I come back over the IAF after my parallel entry and turn back inbound.

2. They will consider that I have flown one circuit when I come back over the IAF the second time after a full normal circuit of the hold.

I want the second but suspect they will consider the first as one circuit. How should I ask for what I want?

Also, can I continue on the approach past the IAF without further clearance? How do I ask for that? I am now thinking they will have said something like, "after executing the hold, fly heading xxx and contact ATC." so I will be good to go but need to know what they consider "executing the hold."

And if they only said "hold at abc", I guess I would have to ask for further clearance before leaving the hold?

Thanks!!
 
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I have always believed (right or wrong) that when you pass the holding fix the 2nd time, however you got there, that is one circuit. That's how I've responded to instructions such as "twin cessna 123 hold east of Napoleon, give me one turn in the hold and depart at 3000" and I haven't been chewed out yet
 
JHW said:
I have always believed (right or wrong) that when you pass the holding fix the 2nd time, however you got there, that is one circuit. That's how I've responded to instructions such as "twin cessna 123 hold east of Napoleon, give me one turn in the hold and depart at 3000" and I haven't been chewed out yet
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Yes, that is what I figured also. I guess that if I want a full normal circuit, I should ask for two turns. Thanks.
 
alfadog said:
Let us say that I want to fly the published hold at the IAF of an RNAV approach then shoot the approach. Let us say that I will hold west and approach from the north. Assume I will enter parallel. I call up approach and tell them I want to fly the published hold one circuit then shoot a practice RNAV approach. What will ATC have understood me to say and how do I proceed?

BTW, this is all VFR with a safety pilot.

1. They will consider that I have flown one circuit when I come back over the IAF after my parallel entry and turn back inbound.

2. They will consider that I have flown one circuit when I come back over the IAF the second time after a full normal circuit of the hold.

I want the second but suspect they will consider the first as one circuit. How should I ask for what I want?
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Say that you'd like two laps in the hold.

Also, can I continue on the approach past the IAF without further clearance? How do I ask for that? I am now thinking they will have said something like, "after executing the hold, fly heading xxx and contact ATC." so I will be good to go but need to know what they consider "executing the hold."
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You're VFR, what clearance do you need? If it's an untowered field you don't have to call ATC at all.
 
roncachamp said:
Say that you'd like two laps in the hold.
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Thanks.

You're VFR, what clearance do you need? If it's an untowered field you don't have to call ATC at all.
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The holding fix is six miles outside Class C airspace (KFLL). The destination is within the Charlie (KFXE). Yes, I could depart the hold but I could not go very far without clearance.
 
Alphadog requests to remain in the hold, one additional circuit.

Alphadog requests remaining in the hold.
 
What is this "hold" of which you speak? The last time I flew one was on my check ride. Even the HILPT I just ask for vectors so I can skip the hold.
 
roncachamp said:
You're VFR, what clearance do you need? If it's an untowered field you don't have to call ATC at all.
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However, your point is taken. I actually do not need any clearance to hold at ENVER.
 
EdFred said:
What is this "hold" of which you speak? The last time I flew one was on my check ride. Even the HILPT I just ask for vectors so I can skip the hold.
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LOL. Well, I have a checkride in my near future so I practice them.
 
alfadog said:
The holding fix is six miles outside Class C airspace (KFLL). The destination is within the Charlie (KFXE). Yes, I could depart the hold but I could not go very far without clearance.
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The only clearance you'd need is to land, but you would have to establish communications before entering Class C airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
The only clearance you'd need is to land, but you would have to establish communications before entering Class C airspace.
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Fair enough but if I want to fly the approach without tower telling me to expect left downwind or somesuch then I need to get approach involved earlier, no?
 
EdFred said:
What is this "hold" of which you speak? The last time I flew one was on my check ride. Even the HILPT I just ask for vectors so I can skip the hold.
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it's the note you write in your logbook every 6 months to stay legal. It used to stand for something, but i forget what
 
Per the AIM, regarding a holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn:
The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry. If cleared for the approach prior to returning to the holding fix, and the aircraft is at the prescribed altitude, additional circuits of the holding pattern are not necessary nor expected by ATC. If pilots elect to make additional circuits to lose excessive altitude or to become better established on course, it is their responsibility to so advise ATC upon receipt of their approach clearance.
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If you receive your approach clearance before crossing the fix the second time (and that includes receving the approach clearance before arriving at the fix the first time to start the entry maneuver), you cross the fix exactly twice -- no more, no less.

If you want or need to cross the fix more or less than twice, make sure you and ATC are on the same page. I've found that some controllers think "one lap in holding" with a HPILPT is just the entry manuver and return to the fix, i.e., crossing the fix twice. In other cases, if you say you want two laps, they think entry plus two (i.e., crossing the fix four times).

In addition, some pilots and controllers seem to assume that a straight-in approach (i.e., going over the fix the first time and then continuing down the approach without performing the HPILPT) will be performed when it appears appropriate. As described in the March 2010 ASRS Callback, this issue is one on which controllers and pilots often do not understand each other, so do not hesitate to spell it out in words of one syllable. Make bloody sure that if you do not hear the words "cleared straight in RNAV 31 approach" that you hear those words before you do go straight in past the HPILPT, and if it looks like you should be going straight in based solely on your arrival direction (i.e., cleared direct to IF with less than 90 degrees to turn to final approach course) but haven't heard those words, that you query the controller about it before making the HPILPT.
 
alfadog said:
Fair enough but if I want to fly the approach without tower telling me to expect left downwind or somesuch then I need to get approach involved earlier, no?
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Yes you do, sequencing of all arrivals is a Class C service performed by approach. That your destination was in Class C airspace was left out of your OP.
 
Ron Levy said:
Per the AIM, regarding a holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn:

The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry. If cleared for the approach prior to returning to the holding fix, and the aircraft is at the prescribed altitude, additional circuits of the holding pattern are not necessary nor expected by ATC. If pilots elect to make additional circuits to lose excessive altitude or to become better established on course, it is their responsibility to so advise ATC upon receipt of their approach clearance.

If you receive your approach clearance before crossing the fix the second time (and that includes receving the approach clearance before arriving at the fix the first time to start the entry maneuver), you cross the fix exactly twice -- no more, no less.

If you want or need to cross the fix more or less than twice, make sure you and ATC are on the same page. I've found that some controllers think "one lap in holding" with a HPILPT is just the entry manuver and return to the fix, i.e., crossing the fix twice. In other cases, if you say you want two laps, they think entry plus two (i.e., crossing the fix four times).

In addition, some pilots and controllers seem to assume that a straight-in approach (i.e., going over the fix the first time and then continuing down the approach without performing the HPILPT) will be performed when it appears appropriate. As described in the March 2010 ASRS Callback, this issue is one on which controllers and pilots often do not understand each other, so do not hesitate to spell it out in words of one syllable. Make bloody sure that if you do not hear the words "cleared straight in RNAV 31 approach" that you hear those words before you do go straight in past the HPILPT, and if it looks like you should be going straight in based solely on your arrival direction (i.e., cleared direct to IF with less than 90 degrees to turn to final approach course) but haven't heard those words, that you query the controller about it before making the HPILPT.
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Thanks. Pretty clear then that if I want to pass the IAF three times then I need to ask for two turns in the hold. Hope I do not run into the ambiguity you mention.
 
Don't ever be afraid to ask for what you want in plain language. For every wanna-be bob hoover on the frequency rolling his eyes, there will be a dozen people turning to the other pilot and saying "why can't more people just spell it out like that guy?"
 
JHW said:
Don't ever be afraid to ask for what you want in plain language. For every wanna-be bob hoover on the frequency rolling his eyes, there will be a dozen people turning to the other pilot and saying "why can't more people just spell it out like that guy?"
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I think if I said "enter in the hold then make one additional circuit" that would be pretty unambiguous, no? Without being too wordy or confusing everyone by talking about how many times I want to pass the IAF.
 
alfadog said:
Thanks. Pretty clear then that if I want to pass the IAF three times then I need to ask for two turns in the hold.
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You can try that, but don't bet the ranch on it being understood. If you ask for "entry plus one additional turn," that's probably going to work, but "two turns"? Might be construed as entry+2 rather than entry+1.

Hope I do not run into the ambiguity you mention.
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If you don't want to run into that ambiguity, then don't leave room for it in your request. ;)
 
Everytime I did a hold, the last a few weeks ago at my own request to stay current, I have never asked for a number of circuits, and have never been asked how many circuits I want. It has always been contact approach when ready to leave hold. In fact this is how it was on my IF checkride as well. I never thought of doing it any other way.
 
douglas393 said:
Everytime I did a hold, the last a few weeks ago at my own request to stay current, I have never asked for a number of circuits, and have never been asked how many circuits I want. It has always been contact approach when ready to leave hold. In fact this is how it was on my IF checkride as well. I never thought of doing it any other way.
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Yeah, I think what I will do is just ask to "hold at ENVER followed by a practice RNAV approach RWY 8 FXE" and see how that goes.
 
alfadog said:
Yeah, I think what I will do is just ask to "hold at ENVER followed by a practice RNAV approach RWY 8 FXE" and see how that goes.
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If I'm doing that, I will say "request holding at ENVER, will advise when ready for the approach."
 
JHW said:
it's the note you write in your logbook every 6 months to stay legal. It used to stand for something, but i forget what
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Oh, you mean that right 360 I do? :D
 
EdFred said:
Oh, you mean that right 360 I do? :D
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you jest, but the truth is that despite all the pontificating about this is a direct and that is a teardrop and all that, in most cases no one cares what you do as long as you stay in the protected airspace
 
JHW said:
you jest, but the truth is that despite all the pontificating about this is a direct and that is a teardrop and all that, in most cases no one cares what you do as long as you stay in the protected airspace
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That is correct -- even on an IR practical test.

3. Explains and uses an entry procedure that ensures the
aircraft remains within the holding pattern airspace for a
standard, nonstandard, published, or nonpublished holding​
pattern.
Click to expand...
 
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