What Constitutes a "Top Overhaul"?

bartmc said:
I see nothing in FAR 43.2 that precludes Tony from saying "73 STOH" in his non-existant for sale ad.
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Neither do I, ( dumbass buyer won't know the difference )


oops I better put a smiley on that :)
 
Tom-D said:
Exactly. !

the terms " owner assisted annual" and top overhaul are the two best misnomers I know of.

neither really exists.
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More **** nobody cares about.

Yep, they both exist and relay an activity that has happened to an airplane, the fact that they don't exist explicitly in the FARs does not mean the phrases are not understood by humans who speak English and are vaguely familiar with piston aircraft. Does the FAA really have to give you a FAR for you to understand what someone is saying?
 
bartmc said:
More **** nobody cares about.

Yep, they both exist and relay an activity that has happened to an airplane, the fact that they don't exist explicitly in the FARs does not mean the phrases are not understood by humans who speak English and are vaguely familiar with piston aircraft. Does the FAA really have to give you a FAR for you to understand what someone is saying?
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for some one who wants perfection from A&Ps you get indignant when we want the proper terms ? WTF..
 
Tom-D said:
That thing gives you coffee for $5 bucks?
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In the spirit of this thread.

He didn't say $5 would get HIM a cup of coffee, he said it would give "weirdjim" a cup of coffee, which I think is a safe assumption even at the high end coffee shops in Seattle. But that doesn't really matter, if his machine gives him coffee for less than $5 a cup, $5.00 is sufficient for a cup of coffee. But, it's a moot point anyway because coffee doesn't really exist since it's not defined in the FARs.
 
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bartmc said:
In the spirit of this thread.

He didn't say $5 would get HIM a cup of coffee, he said it would give "weirdjim" a cup of coffee. But that doesn't really matter, if his machine gives him coffee for less than $5 a cup, $5.00 is sufficient for a cup of coffee. It's a moot point because coffee doesn't really exist since it's not defined in the FARs.
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See ? now you are starting to get the idea. When you don't have FARs you won't have coffee.
 
Tom-D said:
See ? now you are starting to get the idea. When you don't have FARs you won't have coffee.
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I care, as do MOST people about coffee being defined in the FARS as I do about "Time Since Top Overhaul", "Owner Assisted Annual" or "Annual Inspection" vs "13 Month Maintenance Period"

TSTOH = "Time since the top end was overhauled or replaced"

Owner Assisted Annual = I pretended to help and probably annoyed the A&P with my stupid questions. He probably re-did everything I did but didn't tell me because he didn't want to offend me.

Annual Inspection = A&P looked at my plane because the FAA said so a year after the last time he looked at it because the FAA said so. Annual cost is what he charged to look at it and fix everything he saw wrong.

13 month maintenance window = A phrase A&Ps use to split hairs on message boards.
 
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bartmc said:
I care, as do MOST people about coffee being defined in the FARS as I do about "Time Since Top Overhaul", "Owner Assisted Annual" or "Annual Inspection" vs "13 Month Maintenance Period"

TSTOH = "Time since the top end was overhauled or replaced"

Owner Assisted Annual = I pretended to help and probably annoyed the A&P with my stupid questions. He probably re-did everything I did but didn't tell me because he didn't want to offend me.

Annual Inspection = A&P looked at my plane because the FAA said so a year after the last time he looked at it because the FAA said so. Annual cost is what he charged to look at it and fix everything he saw wrong.

13 month maintenance window = A phrase A&Ps use to split hairs on message boards.
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No, annual cost is what an IA endorsed A&P charged to open the plane, inspect, do any required service, close the plane and do the paper work, this is often a fixed price event. Fixing everything he saw wrong is part of the "13 month maintenance cycle" and is an additional expense as well as activity not requiring an IA endorsement.

I know that it sounds like it's nit picky stuff, but if more owners understood it, there would be a lot less hurt feelings and sometimes considerably less expense. The repair phase does not have to be carried out at a high priced shop if that is the situation one finds oneself in. It can be ferried to a lower priced and/or more specialized facility (depending on the repairs required) where the repairs can be done and signed off.
 
Henning said:
No, annual cost is what an IA endorsed A&P charged to open the plane, inspect, do any required service, close the plane and do the paper work, this is often a fixed price event. Fixing everything he saw wrong is part of the "13 month maintenance cycle" and is an additional expense as well as activity not requiring an IA endorsement.

I know that it sounds like it's nit picky stuff, but if more owners understood it, there would be a lot less hurt feelings and sometimes considerably less expense. The repair phase does not have to be carried out at a high priced shop if that is the situation one finds oneself in. It can be ferried to a lower priced and/or more specialized facility (depending on the repairs required) where the repairs can be done and signed off.
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Thank you Henning. I did not know that. This is almost as informative as John and Marie telling me I'll grow old if I don't die first, who knew? The things you learn on POA. :D

Do you typically encounter owners who've had a full frontal lobotomy?

Every 13 months, The FAA says I have to take it to an IA. What it takes for my plane to be signed off as legal to fly again without any sort of ferry hassles or other BS with the IA is.... what my annual cost.

If I say "This year my annual was $2,600 compared to last year, it was only $1,200"

You know full well what I mean when I say that or do I have to recite FAR definitions?

I don't say "This year my annual was the same amount as last year $962.41 But this year I had to have both of my mags overhauled, an ELT battery replaced and 8 new bushings at a cost of $1,637.59 bringing the total for my annual inspection and repairs for airworthiness issues to $2,600."
 
bartmc said:
Thank you Henning. I did not know that. This is almost as informative as John and Marie telling me I'll grow old if I don't die first, who knew? The things you learn on POA. :D

Do you typically encounter owners who've had a full frontal lobotomy?

Every 13 months, The FAA says I have to take it to an IA. What it takes for my plane to be signed off as legal to fly again without any sort of ferry hassles or other BS with the IA is.... what my annual cost.

If I say "This year my annual was $2,600 compared to last year, it was only $1,200"

You know full well what I mean when I say that or do I have to recite FAR definitions?

I don't say "This year my annual was the same amount as last year $962.41 But this year I had to have both of my mags overhauled, an ELT battery replaced and 8 new bushings at a cost of $1,637.59 bringing the total for my annual inspection and repairs for airworthiness issues to $2,600."
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Yes, yes I do...:rofl: I thought it was a prerequisite for owning an airplane.
 
Around here we all know that but I run into many pilots and owners who really do not know the difference between an annual inspection and maintenance or repair of deficiencies found in the annual. yes we refer to all of it as annuals or annual maintenance often enough but it is more precise the other way.

What happens is that some owners fall into the trap of assuming they must have the IA perform all of the airworthy discrepancies which is not true. Some even recommend not having the IA perform any discrepancies other than those that would cost more to have it done at a later time such as something requiring the seats be taken out again or the cowling removed again.

We have A&Ps with experience who come to your hangar for $35 per hour and the IA's often charge $55-75 so it makes a difference. Also there is less risk of conflict of interest if the guy making the decision as to which parts are warn or not, does not benefit from the replacing of same. Less motivation to recommend new $17,000 wings and "BTW, I happen to have a set in the back."
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Around here we all know that but I run into many pilots and owners who really do not know the difference between an annual inspection and maintenance or repair of deficiencies found in the annual. yes we refer to all of it as annuals or annual maintenance often enough but it is more precise the other way.

What happens is that some owners fall into the trap of assuming they must have the IA perform all of the airworthy discrepancies which is not true. Some even recommend not having the IA perform any discrepancies other than those that would cost more to have it done at a later time such as something requiring the seats be taken out again or the cowling removed again.

We have A&Ps with experience who come to your hangar for $35 per hour and the IA's often charge $55-75 so it makes a difference. Also there is less risk of conflict of interest if the guy making the decision as to which parts are warn or not, does not benefit from the replacing of same. Less motivation to recommend new $17,000 wings and "BTW, I happen to have a set in the back."
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Several of the FBO's I know around here will not sign off the annual unless they do the repairs.
 
Tom-D said:
Several of the FBO's I know around here will not sign off the annual unless they do the repairs.
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they do not need to sign it off only that they inspected it and what they found. Any discrepancy can be returned to service with the repairing mechanic unless specifically requiring an IA.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
they do not need to sign it off only that they inspected it and what they found. Any discrepancy can be returned to service with the repairing mechanic unless specifically requiring an IA.
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I know what's legal, I also know they won't take you if they can't do the work.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
We have A&Ps with experience who come to your hangar for $35 per hour and the IA's often charge $55-75 so it makes a difference.
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Most airports I've been based at don't allow "mobile mechanics" on the field. That's not to say they don't regularly sneak in on a regular basis...but some have been caught.

I personally won't deal with or support the "work out of the trunk" mechanics.


Tony_Scarpelli said:
they do not need to sign it off only that they inspected it and what they found. Any discrepancy can be returned to service with the repairing mechanic unless specifically requiring an IA.
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But that only works if everyone is at the same airport.
 
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timwinters said:
I personally won't deal with or support the "work out of the trunk" mechanics.
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WHY ?

Would you support a CFI that works on their own?

or do you only trust the CFI from a flight school?

The A&P and the CFI are both independent service providers.

Tell me what tools required to do an annual, won't fit in a trunk.
 
Tom-D said:
WHY ?
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Because every one that I've tried in the past was a pencil whipper. It's also not fair to the real shops that have a building/hangar (with the associated overhead) and an adequate inventory of parts and meet the airport's insurance requirements, and who may be required to vend fuel and have pilots' facilities, etc.

i.e. someone who's a permanent and trusted part of the airport's community, not someone who's here today, gone tomorrow,
 
timwinters said:
I personally won't deal with or support the "work out of the trunk" mechanics.
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:confused:Why not? Some of the best guys I know in the business work out of a truck or van, many of them do so because they were tired of shop ethics that are sometimes out there to cover overhead.
 
timwinters said:
Because every one that I've tried in the past was a pencil whipper. It's also not fair to the real shops that have a building/hangar (with the associated overhead) and an adequate inventory of parts and meet the airport's insurance requirements, and who may be required to vend fuel and have pilots' facilities, etc.

i.e. someone who's a permanent and trusted part of the airport's community, not someone who's here today, gone tomorrow,
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In other words you are for airport protectionism.
 
Depending on what you have them do there is absolutely nothing wrong with a mobile A&P. In Wichita with Cessna, Boeing, Learjet and Beech sending work off shores there are plenty of experienced A&P's. I am sure I could find one for $20 per hour but I do not want to be abusive...They have to eat.

I know one IA who is between shops and will work for $26 greenbacks per hour. I do not use him because he is old and stubborn and uses a over maintenance model. He is the guy who tore down a perfectly working Cherokee engine because he got nervous about the hours.

My old airport tried to institute a no mobile mechanic on the field policy but I do not think that is working for them. Who is to say if I am paying this guy or he is a friend sharing a beer and helping me? In any case I would not respect that stupid policy. What I do in my hangar is my business short of trying to paint and get over spray on someone elses aircraft.


timwinters said:
Most airports I've been based at don't allow "mobile mechanics" on the field. That's not to say they don't regularly sneak in on a regular basis...but some have been caught.

I personally won't deal with or support the "work out of the trunk" mechanics.




But that only works if everyone is at the same airport.
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Tom-D said:
In other words you are for airport protectionism.
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Not at all, if another mechanic wants to come in and set up shop and compete on a level playing field, then by all means he should do it.

I just won't try to save a few bucks only to undermine my local airport and the services it provides to both its home based and transient pilots. That would be quite myopic.
 
So by that logic you have a local field overhaul rather than buy a brand name overhaul or is that different?

timwinters said:
Not at all, if another mechanic wants to come in and set up shop and compete on a level playing field, then by all means he should do it.

I just won't try to save a few bucks only to undermine my local airport and the services it provides to both its home based and transient pilots. That would be quite myopic.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Depending on what you have them do there is absolutely nothing wrong with a mobile A&P. In Wichita with Cessna, Boeing, Learjet and Beech sending work off shores there are plenty of experienced A&P's. I am sure I could find one for $20 per hour but I do not want to be abusive...They have to eat.

I know one IA who is between shops and will work for $26 greenbacks per hour. I do not use him because he is old and stubborn and uses a over maintenance model. He is the guy who tore down a perfectly working Cherokee engine because he got nervous about the hours.

My old airport tried to institute a no mobile mechanic on the field policy but I do not think that is working for them. Who is to say if I am paying this guy or he is a friend sharing a beer and helping me? In any case I would not respect that stupid policy. What I do in my hangar is my business short of trying to paint and get over spray on someone elses aircraft.
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PAE home of the largest of Boeing's plants has a no migrant A&P policy instituted by the pressure from the 3 FBOs that were there, there is now 1. because they thought pilots/ owners would tolerate the higher prices they thought they could get away with.

PAE is owned by the city of Everette Wa. there is not a single aviation type on the city counsel. so the believe in the big boys toys theory.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
So by that logic you have a local field overhaul rather than buy a brand name overhaul or is that different?
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My mechanic won't overhaul an engine...what's your point?

I won't play your and Tom's games. I stated my point and reasoning. End of story.

Besides I'm not the Master of Bogus Assertions, nor do I suffix my name thusly.
 
timwinters said:
My mechanic won't overhaul an engine...what's your point?
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I'm Sorry that you believe we are playing games, when we are trying to tell you, you are missing the best deal in the aviation industry when you lock out the kids getting started by working on their own. or the old guys like me that provide a service at 1/3rd the cost of a FBO. simply because we don't have their overhead.

You can buy parts and supplies at a much lessor cost than paying the FBO's inflated prices.

Routine maintenance and inspections are not brain surgery, it can be completed as well in your hangar as it can be in the FBO, And when some component must be sent out for repair, your aircraft will be safety stored in your control.

Lots of advantages to using an independent service provider. There are probably several on your home airport that will be there taking care of their aircraft as well as your's
 
Just testing your conviction.

timwinters said:
My mechanic won't overhaul an engine...what's your point?

I won't play your and Tom's games. I stated my point and reasoning. End of story.

Besides I'm not the Master of Bogus Assertions, nor do I suffix my name thusly.
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Tom-D said:
I'm Sorry that you believe we are playing games, when we are trying to tell you, you are missing the best deal in the aviation industry when you lock out the kids getting started by working on their own. or the old guys like me that provide a service at 1/3rd the cost of a FBO. simply because we don't have their overhead.

You can buy parts and supplies at a much lessor cost than paying the FBO's inflated prices.

Routine maintenance and inspections are not brain surgery, it can be completed as well in your hangar as it can be in the FBO, And when some component must be sent out for repair, your aircraft will be safety stored in your control.

Lots of advantages to using an independent service provider. There are probably several on your home airport that will be there taking care of their aircraft as well as your's
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You're being "unfair" Tom. Tim wants to pay for the FBO's leather couch ,fake plants and mahogany desks. Until you buy leather couches, fake plants and mahogany desks, you're not being fair.

If I went at aviation with Tim's mindset, I wouldn't be in aviation. My one lone experience with an airport FBO and maintenance ended with me holding a $300 bill, my issue not fixed and them telling me the problem was something it wasn't. I gave them $300 for them to confuse me. I had planned an across the country XC trip, brought the plane in well in advance of it to give them plenty of time to source parts and diagnose the issue. They didn't even bother looking at it until the day before. A local guy wound up fixing, the charge was unmemorable and it was just a gasket. I go to who provides the best service, The amount of overhead you've chosen to take on isn't my problem.

If the FBO business isn't profitable, shut it down and buy some trucks.
 
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