Westchester NY: plane missing, possibly down.

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by FlightmechH3, Jan 19, 2023.

  1. Capngrog

    Capngrog Pre-takeoff checklist

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    From the article linked in Post #2:

    "According to the Jewish Chronicle, the pair were on their way to Ohio to attend a funeral."

    Funerals, weddings, holiday reservations etc. are the cornerstones of an all too often fatal pilot disease ... "Get there-itis" (GT-I). I think we've all heard the siren's calling, and it's very difficult to ignore, particularly if family problems/emergencies are a motivating factor. Saying "NO" in the face of family members' entreaties can be VERY difficult; however, as pilots, we must consider not only our personal limitations (i.e. lack of training) but also the limitations of the aircraft we are to fly.
     
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  2. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Now more funerals.
     
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  3. Albany Tom

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    Yeah. And it could be more subtle than GTI. Loss of friends or family can lead to stress as well as grief, and in my experience both of those things can cause loss of focus and perhaps lack of attention to details. Maybe not so much in the air, I don't know, but in terms of planning and observation. I hate reading any of these accidents, but when it's what seems to be good people that wandered into risks that were too high it hits harder.
     
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  4. mryan75

    mryan75 Pattern Altitude

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    I’ll get lambasted for this one, but if you absolutely gotta be there, buy a plane ticket.
     
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  5. Bill

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    or drive
     
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  6. PaulS

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    I would just add and things aren't perfect, but I agree.
     
  7. dtuuri

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    For the mechanics, "What can cause a dead cylinder to lead to a loss of oil pressure?" Rings? A burnt piston? Flying too many hours incorrectly trying to be lean of peak?

    For pilots, "Would you ask for the ILS 34 instead of 16?" When minimums are higher than the ceiling?

    :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023 at 10:25 AM
  8. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    In this circumstance, its usually one of two things: a component of the "dead cylinder" poked a hole somewhere leading to oil quantity loss, or, oil pressure was reduced/lost first and that cylinder was the first to fail.
     
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  9. A1Topgun

    A1Topgun Cleared for Takeoff

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    Does the Bonanza engine use the oil filter extension that is known to come loose?
     
  10. Paul V

    Paul V Pre-takeoff checklist

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    this is one of the things that bothers me with this accident. ATC vectored him for ILS 16 which required a longer track. Why? Why not ask for ILS 34 or RNAV 34. Who cares about minimums at that point with a dead or dying engine.
     
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  11. dtuuri

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    Yes. Never pass up a good runway when you need to get on the ground. Note how much distance is covered while troubleshooting and hunting for the approach to runway 16: Westchester County Airport Fatal Crash of N19MT (originally traveling from JFK to Cleveland, OH) - YouTube . He had lots of altitude and a helpful tailwind for RWY 34, but only REIL lighting. All he needed was a vector and an ILS frequency from ATC, get on the 34 localizer and hope the engine isn't needed to stay above the glideslope. I don't think he appreciated how dire the situation was, though. The controller did a nice job of raising his awareness of the option to divert to White Plains. Sad that it didn't work out. :(
     
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  12. mryan75

    mryan75 Pattern Altitude

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    The other part is, these gentlemen were Orthodox Jews, which means that the funeral they were attending was not scheduled 5 days in advance. Their belief is you have to get the body in the ground by dusk. So it’s likely (assuming the previous deceased was also Orthodox Jew) that they got a call that day, notifying them of the funeral like, right now. That may have played a role in this.
     
  13. dtuuri

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  14. PaulS

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    VASI just posted the comms over the flight path. Sad end, I don't know, but it looks like he had at least partial power to near the end.

     
  15. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    ugh if that lines up correctly 9MT flew away from the airport at the worst time. he was actually much higher than I originally thought and very close to the runway. flew in the wrong direction just long enough to leave himself no outs.
     
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  16. mryan75

    mryan75 Pattern Altitude

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  17. Stan Bergey

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    This exactly. Ever since I saw the flight track, this has been eating at me. While ATC did a great job with the vectors, why did he not suggest 34? As it was, the guy made a ¾ circle around the airport before coming up short. If I found myself in this scenario, I would hope I'd be asking for closest available runway, and if I could get on an ILS or LPV with enough power to maintain the glideslope, I'd be flying that thing to pavement, with such trivialities as tailwinds and ceilings vs. minimums taken care of handily with the little phrase "declaring an emergency".
    That said, I wasn't the guy in the seat, so I can't know. My condolences to the surviving families... :sad:

    No question. Try flying a precision approach on the gauges (coupled, if you have an A/P) all the way to 20' above the runway sometime on a VFR day, and see what tools that experiment adds to your emergency toolkit :smilewinkgrin:
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023 at 7:06 PM
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  18. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Damn, that’s sad. Seven knot tail wind on a 6500ft runway? I’d have taken that, 34 was the way to go.
     
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  19. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    this is the first time he declared and ATC gave him a vector for 16, which 9MT did not follow:

    upload_2023-1-23_20-0-58.png

    after flying "whatever heading", here is the 2nd time he was very close to the airport and given a vector for downwind to 16. you can see he's still at 5k:

    upload_2023-1-23_20-1-13.png


    this is the third time, after wandering pretty far from the airport and basically not following any heading assignments, where he finally declares mayday mayday and starts to turn towards the field:

    upload_2023-1-23_20-1-25.png


    at the point of the first vector for ILS16 it was about equidistant to 34, one wouldn't have made that much of a difference over the other, me thinks. but when ATC says "they're using 16", I guess that gets in your head.
     
  20. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Emann, I agree the guy didn’t perform well under pressure. Probably why he didn’t demand ILS34 as well.
     
  21. dtuuri

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    This is where he says he has a dead cylinder and wants to go to Westchester. Had ATC already said runway 16?

    Screenshot 2023-01-23 203425.jpg
     
  22. eman1200

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    Bro do you even lift
    I disagree. I can only go by the vasaviation recreation lined up with the audio. I don't think you're showing where he said he had a dead cylinder, but where he stated he wasn't getting the climb performance he expected. your image shows him south, slightly southeast of HPN. in the video where he declares a dead cylinder he is further along, southwest of the field.

    upload_2023-1-23_20-45-28.png

    not even sure that matters, 16 or 34 at 6k, neither should have been an issue if he followed vectors to either.
     
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  23. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I'm using the link in Post #51:


    It has better topography, imo.
     
  24. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    don't feel like watching another video on it, althought the 1st comment on your video someone states how the audio doesn't line up with the video. I stand by my comment that at either where you (or your video) says he was or where the vasi one says he was, at 6k either ILS was easily attainable if he flew the vectors given. the 2nd pic showed him at 5k AT the airport and the audio clearly shows multiple times vectors given were not flown, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to push.
     
  25. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, I don’t see 16 vs 34 a big deal. I addition, HPN has a shared frequency. Not sure how fast they can switch the loc, and ensure everything in the green.
     
  26. dtuuri

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    The screenshot I posted matches the audio and location on VASAviation. I'm pushing the need to have situational awareness so this doesn't happen to anybody else too. One dead cylinder could be all dead in another second or two. This accident shows the importance of having an "out" ready at hand, if you takeoff in these conditions that is.
     
  27. Albany Tom

    Albany Tom Pattern Altitude

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    To me, engine out IFR night landing sounds like a serious PITA with high stress no matter how you slice it. Of course, that's coming from a simple VFR pilot.
     
  28. Joepilotmsp

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    Wish i hadn’t listened to that just before bed. Condolences to the families. RIP…
     
  29. PaulS

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    My takeaway on this is that there is nothing gained by being non-chalant about declaring an emergency. Engine problems mean get to an airport while the engine is running. This guy was in an awful situation. In the beginning he saw very poor performance, then it changed to a dead cylinder, then to declining oil pressure, and his final indication was a prop over speeding (that's what I heard anyway). At the sign of poor performance he probably should have turned to a runway rather than waiting. I thought he maintained altitude until near the very end and I wonder if he still had some power but was descending and finally lost control. I'm not sure, but at least he knew he didn't have time to fly an approach.

    I really don't fault the guy's actions, he was under tremendous stress, I just wish he understood how important it was to stay on course and get down, I think he thought he had plenty of time. My take away is if that engine is running, get to the airport, get aligned with a runway, at least on a localizer and get it landed right away.

    One more thing, most controllers aren't pilots. It's not good to let them make decisions for you. You, the pilot, need to tell them what you want. It's a lot easier for them to give it to you when you declare an emergency, they can do a lot more. Waiting for them to figure out you are an emergency takes valuable time you may not have.
     
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  30. midwestpa24

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    I have stressed this as both a pilot and flight instructor, and as an airport firefighter, declare early and declare often. So many pilots are hesitant to use the words. I don't know if it is denial of the situation they are in, embarrassment, or afraid of some type of repercussions from the declaring an emergency. No one is going to hang you for declaring an emergency. You may be asked to file a report, but it is not a big deal. If ATC is asking if you want to declare, that is a big hint!
     
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  31. luvflyin

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    Yup. FWIW, ATC can declare the emergency. I don't remember at what point the Controller asked that question, but it may be that he should have just done it instead of asking
     
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  32. Piperonca

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    Heartbreaking to consider yet another crash with souls lost, and understand in this unfortunate instance the pilot was way behind his aircraft. But assuming he had kept his composure and announced early, and the controller had given him free flight over the airport, what could he have done with a sick or dead engine at altitude? Getting on an ILS glideslope might be a sucker trap if the aircraft rate of descent exceeded it, which I would expect. What would you do? Not too difficult VMC, but IMC?
     
  33. midwestpa24

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    That's where I'd say this accident change started before he even left the house with the decision to fly in or over low IMC in a single engine airplane. Now I'm not saying it can't be done, or even shouldn't be done, but I think we as pilots need to be truthful with ourselves about the risk. Having an engine failure in extreme clear conditions is much easier to manage, but as statistics show doesn't always have a happy ending. Adding IMC conditions increases the odds of an accident exponentially. There is a reason why I have high personal minimums, it is recognition of the risks involved and admission of my skill and proficiency.

    I'd recommend during your IFR training, have your instructor pull the engine while you are in cruise under the hood. What are you going to do, where are you going to go. Stay under the hood all the way down as low as it is safe to go, then "break out". Are you in a position that would have allowed you to survive?
     
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  34. Piperonca

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    Definitely. Like flying over Lake Superior and having the engine quit. Unless you're over a boat, it's all over.

    In the situation with 19MT, I would have started a standard rate turn in my descent, centered on the airport. At about 800 ft above airport elevation, I would have dropped flaps and gear to slow up as much as feasible, then lined up with whichever runway presented itself. All of this assuming I had FF or equivalent and was proficient with it. I'm making this up in my head since I haven't flown in long time, and never with ground mapping equipment. Somebody might have a better Hail Mary approach.

    The controller was trying to give 19MT a makeshift ASR in desperation. If that pilot had not been in a state of disorientation, it would have been at least a chance.
     
  35. Hector Parra

    Hector Parra Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ouch. So sad for his family and the controller
     
  36. dtuuri

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    Thing is, he was right at the FAF for ILS 34 at 5100' while he was reporting a dead cylinder and wanting to go to White Plains. So there was a window of opportunity had he been thinking of White Plains as a departure alternate and monitoring his proximity to it since leaving JFK. At that point his rate of climb was down to 200 fpm and his airspeed had fallen off 70 mph. Getting the ILS switched around and losing excess altitude while maneuvering to intercept the localizer would have been his biggest problems. On the other hand, if he had been thinking about White Plains as a departure alternate in the first place he'd likely not have felt good about departing, since his "ace in the hole" was below minimums.
     
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  37. dtuuri

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    Yeah, but even God couldn't intercept the localizer from a 90° angle one mile out.
     
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  38. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The airport has to switch the ILS around? Didn't know that...

    In any event, a previous poster stated the aircraft had a 530W, put in RNAV GPS RWY 34 and head for the nearest IAF. Tell the controller to move the metal out of the way and get it done.

    Although I realize it's quite easy to Monday morning QB this, I'm sure the pilot was very stressed.
     
  39. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yup. Many airports have a single frequency for both directions. It must be switched. I think it’s pretty quick, but I’m sure it takes a couple minutes to make sure everything is in the green.
     
  40. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Another video on this, nothing really new on the accident path, but there is a news report at about 10:00 in that talks about one of the guys texting his family.