Water leak somewhere, on Piper Archer. Can't figure where...

stevenhmiller

stevenhmiller

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Steve's Archer
I have a 1977 Piper Archer II that has a leak somewhere, but I can't figure out where. I have a canopy cover on it that straps under the belly in 4 places, that goes from just before the windshield, all the way back behind the rear side window. It sits just below the bottom of the side windows.

When it rains, I get a puddle in the plane. There is a 3 inch strip of carpet that goes along the wall on the pilots side, that fits between the wall and the pilots left seat rail. The whole strip of carpet, from the back to the front is saturated when it rains. I checked the front and rear vents and the sidewall below and around them are dry.

Anyone have an idea where this water may be entering?

Here is a picture of the interior with the seats removed. See that 3 inch strip along the wall, between the rail and wall? That's what is soaked with water.

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Here is the plane with the cover on it.

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Ok, seals are not expensive and seem fairly simple to replace. Is this something I can do, or must it be done and logged by an AP?
 
Steve, Gary Shelby on this board has a Cherokee and we experienced this problem as well but on the pax side. We figured it was coming from the wing root but could not be sure. The Cherokee had a similar cover to yours.

We solved the problem by pushing the tail down when we tied it down. Pushing the tail Dow and angling the nose up did the trick for us. We basically just pushed down on the stabilator spar. We didn't need to push it down far perhaps only a couple of inches.
 
AdamZ said:
Steve, Gary Shelby on this board has a Cherokee and we experienced this problem as well but on the pax side. We figured it was coming from the wing root but could not be sure. The Cherokee had a similar cover to yours.

We solved the problem by pushing the tail down when we tied it down. Pushing the tail Dow and angling the nose up did the trick for us. We basically just pushed down on the stabilator spar. We didn't need to push it down far perhaps only a couple of inches.
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You know Adam, that very well could be the issue. The plane is on my neighbors apron, which pitches down. The nose is pitched downhill on the apron. He told me to pull pack on the yoke and tie it with the seatbelt to prevent the stabilator from moving up and down in wind. The stabilator is all the way up.

I just need to figure out a way to prevent the stabilator from moving while on tie down. I have a strap to tie the yokes together, but that only prevents the ailerons from moving.
 
stevenhmiller said:
Ok, seals are not expensive and seem fairly simple to replace. Is this something I can do, or must it be done and logged by an AP?
Click to expand...

I think you're in for a surpise.

There is a reason Piper put the gasket on before installing the wing on the fuselage.
 
Actually replacing the wing root seal is easy. Heat gun to warm it up and simple green extreme or spray silicone to lube it . Work it into place with a wooden paint paddle with the end slightly smoothed so no sharp edges. Takes about 1 and 1/4 hors per side. Just did two a couple of weeks ago. $50 per side from aircraft spruce
 
stevenhmiller said:
You know Adam, that very well could be the issue. The plane is on my neighbors apron, which pitches down. The nose is pitched downhill on the apron. He told me to pull pack on the yoke and tie it with the seatbelt to prevent the stabilator from moving up and down in wind. The stabilator is all the way up.

I just need to figure out a way to prevent the stabilator from moving while on tie down. I have a strap to tie the yokes together, but that only prevents the ailerons from moving.
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It sounds like you can keep doing the same things, just park with your nose pointed up hill.
 
stevenhmiller said:
You know Adam, that very well could be the issue. The plane is on my neighbors apron, which pitches down. The nose is pitched downhill on the apron. He told me to pull pack on the yoke and tie it with the seatbelt to prevent the stabilator from moving up and down in wind. The stabilator is all the way up.

I just need to figure out a way to prevent the stabilator from moving while on tie down. I have a strap to tie the yokes together, but that only prevents the ailerons from moving.
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Steve, just as an FYI, we did not keep the nose up by tying down the tail. When we pushed on the stabilator spar you could feel the nose strut drop a bit and the mains compress just slightly. The plane would then stay that way and we'd tie the tail down. Totally solved the water issue.

A gust lock should keep the tail from moving but Gary does not have one so he uses a bungee cord, super easy and super inexpensive. We hook one end of the bungee to the pilot side inner rudder pedal then run it up through the pilot's yoke ( he has the bow tie style, but it can be done with the ram's horn style.) then around the inner side of the pax side yoke and then hooked off back on the inner side of the pilot's yoke.
 
I have a tail/stabilator cover that I got with the plane when I bought it. I'm going to put that on to cover the opening in the back so rain doesn't get in there. Also, going to bungee the two yokes together and then a bungee from the rudder up to the pilot yoke to keep the stabilator pointing down. I'll see if that solves the issue. If not, then I'll replace the wing root seals.
 
Vaflier said:
Actually replacing the wing root seal is easy. Heat gun to warm it up and simple green extreme or spray silicone to lube it . Work it into place with a wooden paint paddle with the end slightly smoothed so no sharp edges. Takes about 1 and 1/4 hors per side. Just did two a couple of weeks ago. $50 per side from aircraft spruce
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How much do you pay the "hors"..:dunno::dunno:..

And where the heck do you find 1/4 of one...:dunno:.......:D......:lol:
 
stevenhmiller said:
You know Adam, that very well could be the issue. The plane is on my neighbors apron, which pitches down. The nose is pitched downhill on the apron. He told me to pull pack on the yoke and tie it with the seatbelt to prevent the stabilator from moving up and down in wind. The stabilator is all the way up.

I just need to figure out a way to prevent the stabilator from moving while on tie down. I have a strap to tie the yokes together, but that only prevents the ailerons from moving.
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To follow up on Adam's comment, tying it down in a nose up attitude (front strut extended) is worth a try. Finding a leak is a PITA! My tie-down isn't level, the left wing (pilot side) is a tad lower than the right wing and there is a slight pitch forward. I'd get water below and behind the passenger seat (right side of cabin) just in front of the spar carry-thru. Tried all kinds of things to figure out where it was coming from, never did figure it out for sure. Leaving it tied down in a nose up attitude solved the problem. I've got the Hershey bar wings, there are two or three small weep holes right at the wing root on the bottom. Over time they plugged up, cleaning them out may have also helped. Don't know if the tapered wing has these.

The right length bungee cord works well. One end on the rudder pedal, looped around and secured to the yokes. Provides firm pressure to keep the yokes forward, immobilizes the ailerons, but still has some "give".

Bob Noel said:
I think you're in for a surpise.

There is a reason Piper put the gasket on before installing the wing on the fuselage.
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:yes: A tedious and time consuming job. Need lots of patience, lots of silicone spray lube and two short paint stirrer sticks to guide and compress the bulb below the seal as it is installed. Not technically difficult, just a pain.

Gary
 
Wing root seals are not that big of a deal to replace. I use dish soap, and a plastic Tongue depressor (available from your local glass shop, and has 1m+1 uses).
 
bluerooster said:
Wing root seals are not that big of a deal to replace. I use dish soap, and a plastic Tongue depressor (available from your local glass shop, and has 1m+1 uses).
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I examined the seals and they have some slight cracking in them. They're still pliable, but I think it's time. From what I've read it's time consuming to replace, but no big deal. Just plenty of soapy water sprayed on and a paint stirring stick will do the job. Cheap enough at $100 for both wings.
 
Steve until you get the new wing root seals. let us know how pushing the tail down works.
 
N801BH said:
How much do you pay the "hors"..:dunno::dunno:..

And where the heck do you find 1/4 of one...:dunno:.......:D......:lol:
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Quarter horses are plentiful and easy to find. Expensive though. :)

FWIW, I too occasionally have plenty of water on the floor boards in my Cherokee after a decent rain. Full cockpit cover as well.
HOWEVER, the water collects in the front floorpans (under pedals) and the rear floorpans (under the seats). I don't have carpet (floor mats) in the plane for that very reason (and because they smelled pretty bad when I bought the plane).
So you have no water intrusion into the forward floorpans?
 
BigBadLou said:
Quarter horses are plentiful and easy to find. Expensive though. :)

FWIW, I too occasionally have plenty of water on the floor boards in my Cherokee after a decent rain. Full cockpit cover as well.
HOWEVER, the water collects in the front floorpans (under pedals) and the rear floorpans (under the seats). I don't have carpet (floor mats) in the plane for that very reason (and because they smelled pretty bad when I bought the plane).
So you have no water intrusion into the forward floorpans?
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This may be a different problem. The forward water could be the result of your windshield needing to be resealed. I'm not sure, but water in other side locations could be the result of inadequate sealing of the side windows above the wet areas. This seemed to be the problem for me in my baggage area that was resolved with resealing at the paint shop.
 
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Had a good downpour yesterday and rained last night. Checked it this morning and no water in the cockpit. I had bungied the yokes forward to the rudder to keep the stabilator down, and put a cover over the tail/stabilator opening. Also tightened the canopy cover straps so cover wast taught.

I'm still going to replace the wing root seals though. They look a little old.
 
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