waivers for minimum altitude?

[shenanigans]

Is it possible to get a waiver to allow flying below 500 ft over a non congested area for a one time event? If so, how would I do that and how much of a hassle would it be?

 

[BillTIZ]

more information needed
Where are you saying "non congested area" and what "event"?

There is nothing that says you can't fly below 500ft AGL, it says you have to stay 500ft away from people and stuff (91.119(c)) and always in a position to make a safe landing if a problem develops (91.119(a))

Ok.. 91.119(c) refers to "sparsly populated", we have a lot of that around here.
I don't think crop dusters every get ABOVE 500ft AGL.

 

[roncachamp]

Is it possible to get a waiver to allow flying below 500 ft over a non congested area for a one time event?

Possible? Yes. FAR 91.119 appears in FAR 91.905 List of rules subject to waivers.

If so, how would I do that and how much of a hassle would it be?

I have no experience with it, but I'd start with AIM 4−1−23. Requests for Waivers and Authorizations from Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR).

 

[RotorAndWing]

Yes you can get a waiver.

 

[roncachamp]

more information needed
Where are you saying "non congested area" and what "event"?

There is nothing that says you can't fly below 500ft AGL, it says you have to stay 500ft away from people and stuff (91.119(c)) and always in a position to make a safe landing if a problem develops (91.119(a))

It says "the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." Anything that could reasonably be called an "event" will have some of those so if the desire is to fly closer than 500 feet to them a waiver is needed.

Ok.. 91.119(c) refers to "sparsly populated", we have a lot of that around here.
I don't think crop dusters every get ABOVE 500ft AGL.

PART 137—AGRICULTURAL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS

§ 137.49 Operations over other than congested areas.

Notwithstanding part 91 of this chapter, during the actual dispensing operation, including approaches, departures, and turnarounds reasonably necessary for the operation, an aircraft may be operated over other than congested areas below 500 feet above the surface and closer than 500 feet to persons, vessels, vehicles, and structures, if the operations are conducted without creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

 

[PittsDriver]

If this "event" is an occasion to which you've openly invited the public to witness acts of aviation, The Man calls that an air show and there are waivers granted for those frequently. If you're unfamiliar with the FAA's process for obtaining these waivers and subsequently, conducting your event in compliance with your waiver, I'd suggest you start by checking with the EAA and/or IAC (a subsidiary of the EAA). They have government affairs people that are well versed in how to negotiate the process. But I'll warn you, not to discourage you but to prepare you, that there are a great many flaming hoops to jump through to get the waiver and exercise it.

 

[JeffDG]

Most "events" are also deemed to be "open air assembly of persons" and subject to the 1,000' congested area rule rather than the 500' non-congested area rule.

 

[TMetzinger]

As others have noted, depending on what the "event" is, it's quite possible to get a waiver. We just went through this process at one of my airports for our airshow. The FAA has the application as well as the appropriate manuals available online, so you can understand exactly what they'll be looking for.

 

[Everskyward]

I know that the few air races I have been involved with get waivers for the fly-by down the runway. I don't know the exact process but you could contact the nearest FSDO.

 

[poadeleted20]

Summary: Yes, it is theoretically possible to get a waiver for 91.119(c), but you'll have to work it through the FSDO covering the location for which the waiver is needed and submit an FAA Form 7711-2. See FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 3, Section 7, Chapter 1, for what that process will entail and what criteria will be used to determine whether or not the waiver will be issued. If this is for an "aviation event," see Chapter 6 of that volume.

 

[bdlarkin]

Are you over a runway? Intending to land? The 500ft thing doesn't count if you are on an approach. 'Course depending on the profile you could be "reckless and dangerous".

There's a Pitt's at my airport that has been known to do several low (very low) approaches at high speed.... with smoke on.
:wink2:

And no I don't know who it is or what his intentions were.

 

[poadeleted20]

Oh, yeah -- "how much of a hassle" depends on just what you are proposing to do and where you're proposing to do it. See the FAA Order sections I linked above to get an idea of what criteria they'll use and compare that to your proposed "one-time event."

 

[shenanigans]

Thanks everyone for the information. I guess 'event' was a misleading term. There will be a handful of people around. But they'll all be connected with what we're doing, so there won't be random members of the public.
I misread the regs - didn't realize it was 500' from people, buildings, etc... Having now read through the requirements of the waiver process, it might just be easier to make sure no people/property are within 500' of the flight path.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just what is it you're trying to do? And where are you trying to do it? Some of us may be able to provide more helpful advice if we had a better idea of what this is all about.

 

[PittsDriver]

Having now read through the requirements of the waiver process, it might just be easier to make sure no people/property are within 500' of the flight path.

You're going to find that many things will be easier than submitting yourself to the waiver process. Ducking the rules will always be easier until you're caught or someone complains. Just know that depending on what you're about to do it would be analogous to stepping out across a mine field with no body armor. Maneuvers that look nothing like aerobatic flight to me have been ruled as such and pilots have been violated for performing them.

I'll give you an example of how you can get on the FSDO's list of things to do: you spend an hour buzzing around over some place near/over an airport. People that live near the airport notice something unusual going on and because they hate the airport anyway, complain to the FSDO and get ultimately get their complaint in writing. This triggers an investigation in which they start calling the folks that belong to N numbers that some knucklehead wrote down when you were out there. At this point, you may be just a poorly worded response on a phone call away from a sanction action.

Not only that, you've soured some relations with the community nearby and further prejudiced those folks and the FSDO against the people that might be out there doing it all legally. We don't know yet what you're thinking about so this is all hypothetical and I'm not accusing you of anything. Just making the attempt to raise awareness of the issue as someone that's been blamed for things I didn't do by people that didn't know any better. Unless you're trying to "get away with something," it never hurts to call the FSDO and ask them about your event idea. Asking them, and getting their OK, isn't full proof armor but it sure won't hurt when they get a complaint and can say "Oh yeah, we knew about that."

 

[N801BH]

Just what is it you're trying to do? And where are you trying to do it? Some of us may be able to provide more helpful advice if we had a better idea of what this is all about.

Seeing how S. is from central Iowa my guess is it will take him all day just to find a person or structure to come within 500 feet of .

Now if he is looking for a waiver to fly within 500 feet of a corn field then he can PM me as I have Dr Jack Kevorkians phone number on speed dial.

Ben.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Just use a helicopter...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Seeing how S. is from central Iowa my guess is it will take him all day just to find a person or structure to come within 500 feet of .

Funny, yes, but some of the largest towers in the midwest are in Iowa.

 

[shenanigans]

Sorry, I didn't post what I was doing because I wanted comments on the regulation part and not the activity. We're trying to do some form of bomb drop - not with real bombs of course. We're looking to do it around 400`. We have access to private land that would be suitable for a target area and also provide a safe place to land if there were any issues.

Funny, yes, but some of the largest towers in the midwest are in Iowa.

There's a cluster of ~2000' towers/antennas about 15-20 miles N of Des Moines. DSM approach is paranoid about them (for good reason).

 

[poadeleted20]

Sorry, I didn't post what I was doing because I wanted comments on the regulation part and not the activity. We're trying to do some form of bomb drop - not with real bombs of course. We're looking to do it around 400`. We have access to private land that would be suitable for a target area and also provide a safe place to land if there were any issues.

Well, I do have some experience on that, having been involved in AYA's annual Flour Bomb competition for the last 15 years or so, as (at various times) competitor, event coordinator, and safety director.

We've always done this on an airport, so there's no complaints about low-flying airplanes, and we've never filed for a waiver since the planes are more or less just doing low approaches down the runway (or very nearly down the runway -- we usually spot the target a couple of hundred feet to the side to keep the biodegradable mess off the runway). Neither the FAA nor Transport Canada has ever had a problem with us doing this even with a 200-foot minimum altitude. Nor have they ever objected to the spotting crew being near the run-in line. They have, however, told us that the presence of the general public would make this an "aerial event" requiring a whole lot of paperwork, so we don't invite, encourage, or allow spectators from outside our group.

If you're doing this away from an airport, you'd better take care not to excite the public or generate complaints. I'd try to get permission to do this at a quiet private airstrip before I'd do it in some farm field somewhere. However, if that's not an option, I'd suggest the following considerations:

• No houses nearby (I'm thinking like nothing within a mile of the target)
• No place the public may gather to watch (mind doing this near a busy road, or even a non-busy public road)
• No power lines or the like to tangle with
• Comply with 91.15 by taking "reasonable precautions" to make sure that bad drops don't land on any property you're not controlling or hit anything of value (expect long/short rounds up to 1000 feet and lateral errors up to 500 feet).

If you do all that, 400-foot runs shouldn't be a real problem, and you shouldn't need to say anything to the FAA in advance. Attached are some sample rules and information you may want to use as a baseline for your event.