VOR check

mattaxelrod

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Matt
I'm required to have the VOR's in the plane checked within the past 30 days for legal IFR flight. I also know this can be done in a few different ways. Today, while flying (VFR), I dialed in the nearby VOR in both VOR 1 and VOR 2. I noted the discrepancy (1 degree, if that). Later, I wrote down today's date, which VOR, the radial I was on, the DME from the VOR, and the 1 degree difference between the two of them. Then I signed my name and stuck it in my airplane logbook.

Did I do all that right?
 
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Date, Place, Discrepancy (Bearing Error), and Signature is all that is required. I have heard that it is supposed to be logged in a bound book but I don't do it and don't know anyone that does. I have a "VOR log sheet" that is in with my "airplane flight log folder". It stores about 30 checks on one sheet. I'm sure more data is better, at least for your info, but not required.
 
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mattaxelrod said:
I'm required to have the VOR's in the plane checked within the past 30 days for legal IFR flight. I also know this can be done in a few different ways. Today, while flying (VFR), I dialed in the nearby VOR in both VOR 1 and VOR 2. I noted the discrepancy (1 degree, if that). Later, I wrote down today's date, which VOR, the radial I was on, the DME from the VOR, and the 1 degree difference between the two of them. Then I signed my name and stuck it in my airplane logbook.

Did I do all that right?

Close enough for government work. The actual FAR (91.171) requires:

(d) Each person making the VOR operational check, as specified in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, shall enter the date, place, bearing error, and sign the aircraft log or other record.

FWIW, "other record" can be a bar napkin tucked into your flight bag.
 
Knew a guy that kept the VOR check in pencil on the plastic sun visor, just erased the last one.
 
While there's no requirement for a maintenance log for your avionics for VOR checks, the FAA is now starting to enforce the requirement to do a proper Part 43 log entry for all GPS data base updates, since those updates are defined as "preventive maintenance" in Part 43 Appendix A. That means unless you want to carry your airframe log around, you will want to create an avionics log and keep it in the glove box or something, and record in it each data base update with a full 14 CFR 43.9-proper signed entry. You could also put VOR checks in that book.
 
Ron Levy said:
the FAA is now starting to enforce the requirement to do a proper Part 43 log entry for all GPS data base updates, since those updates are defined as "preventive maintenance" in Part 43 Appendix A.

Ron, I wasn't aware of this. I thought the only requirement was that if you were flying, and filing /G, you needed a current database. If all you do is file /U (or fly VFR without filing) and you have VOR's, etc., on board, are they now enforcing that your data base must be current?
 
Ron Levy said:
While there's no requirement for a maintenance log for your avionics for VOR checks, the FAA is now starting to enforce the requirement to do a proper Part 43 log entry for all GPS data base updates, since those updates are defined as "preventive maintenance" in Part 43 Appendix A. That means unless you want to carry your airframe log around, you will want to create an avionics log and keep it in the glove box or something, and record in it each data base update with a full 14 CFR 43.9-proper signed entry. You could also put VOR checks in that book.

Since logbooks are not required to be carried on the plane how would they enforce this on a ramp check?

"Mr. Frederick, may I see the logbooks for the GPS database update on your plane?"

"I'm sorry mister inspector sir, but I don't have a pic-i-nic basket, er, logbook in the plane. I don't keep those in the logbooks for the aircraft, but in an avionics log that sits on a low table right next to where my dog eats. Provided Boo-Boo hasn't gotten hungry and destroyed this copy like he has the last 4, I will be happy to provide you with a copy of those GPS updates when I return home."
 
bstratt said:
Ron, I wasn't aware of this. I thought the only requirement was that if you were flying, and filing /G, you needed a current database. If all you do is file /U (or fly VFR without filing) and you have VOR's, etc., on board, are they now enforcing that your data base must be current?

While waiting for Ron's answer...if it's in the a/c, it's useable. If it's useable it is to be in compliance with pertinent rules and regs. If it's not useable, ie, not in compliance, it should be placarded as such. I don't think pulling the CB is sufficient.

That doesn't even bring up the subject of if it's required equipment.
 
N2212R said:
Since logbooks are not required to be carried on the plane how would they enforce this on a ramp check?

"Mr. Frederick, may I see the logbooks for the GPS database update on your plane?"

"I'm sorry mister inspector sir, but I don't have a pic-i-nic basket, er, logbook in the plane. I don't keep those in the logbooks for the aircraft, but in an avionics log that sits on a low table right next to where my dog eats. Provided Boo-Boo hasn't gotten hungry and destroyed this copy like he has the last 4, I will be happy to provide you with a copy of those GPS updates when I return home."

From that I presume you would be a hoot when ramp'd.
 
bstratt said:
Ron, I wasn't aware of this. I thought the only requirement was that if you were flying, and filing /G, you needed a current database. If all you do is file /U (or fly VFR without filing) and you have VOR's, etc., on board, are they now enforcing that your data base must be current?
No, you don't have to have a current database to file /U or go VFR, but you have to have a log entry for each database update if you do one. And that counts no matter whether you file /G, /U, or go VFR. The issue is that the database update is (and has been since they added item (32) to section (c) of Appendix A to Part 43, but they just missed the documentational significance of that until recently) defined as "maintenance," and all "maintenance" must be logged per 43.9.
 
N2212R said:
Since logbooks are not required to be carried on the plane how would they enforce this on a ramp check?
They would ask:

"Mr. Frederick, may I see the logbooks for the GPS database update on your plane?"

And Mr. Frederick would say:

"I'm sorry mister inspector sir, but I don't have a pic-i-nic basket, er, logbook in the plane. I don't keep those in the logbooks for the aircraft, but in an avionics log that sits on a low table right next to where my dog eats. Provided Boo-Boo hasn't gotten hungry and destroyed this copy like he has the last 4, I will be happy to provide you with a copy of those GPS updates when I return home."

To which they would say, "Just be sure you bring it by your local FSDO uneaten and in proper order, along with your airframe, engine, and prop logs by the end of next week. And remember that failure to comply will result in an investigation into possible violations of 14 CFR Part 43 or, if the records are missing or otherwise not up to Par 43 standards, 14 CFR 91.7, since airworthiness includes proper maintenance documentation and we saw you flying this plane today. Have a nice day, and remember, we're here to help you."

My feeling is that it's easiest just to keep this log in the plane where you do the database updates and VOR checks. Remember that even if you lose it, all you need do is document the last update and do a new VOR check, and you're back in business, and unlike missing airframe or engine logs, I don't think the aircraft's value will depreciate significantly if you can't document all the database updates.
 
Richard said:
From that I presume you would be a hoot when ramp'd.
The Japanese say that the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, and the FAA has a lot of hammers. Choose wisely when dealing with ramp checks, because if you are polite and cooperative, all evidence (can't speak personally as I've never been ramp checked in 36 years and almost 7000 hours of flying) says that it will be quick, painless, and friendly, but if you pull their chain, it gets long, ugly, and painful.
 
Ok, on a serious note if they did ask to see the books and I gave a simple and less funny answer of

"I'm sorry, I don't keep the logs in the plane."

Will they still ask you to go down to the FSDO provided everything else is fine and in order (AROW + certificate + medical) and I am very cooperative and accomodating?
 
Ron Levy said:
No, you don't have to have a current database to file /U or go VFR, but you have to have a log entry for each database update if you do one. And that counts no matter whether you file /G, /U, or go VFR. The issue is that the database update is (and has been since they added item (32) to section (c) of Appendix A to Part 43, but they just missed the documentational significance of that until recently) defined as "maintenance," and all "maintenance" must be logged per 43.9.

I maintain my Garmin 530 to be current for en route and approach use.
Does this mean that 13 times a year I must make an entry into my airplane's logbooks that the database for the GPS has been updated?
 
Ron Levy said:
The Japanese say that the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, and the FAA has a lot of hammers. Choose wisely when dealing with ramp checks, because if you are polite and cooperative, all evidence (can't speak personally as I've never been ramp checked in 36 years and almost 7000 hours of flying) says that it will be quick, painless, and friendly, but if you pull their chain, it gets long, ugly, and painful.

As luck would have it, I got ramp checked on my first flight after receiving my temporary cert. I flew from RDU to Burlington for the balloon festival/Airshow and to fly some Young Eagles. Because of the festival/airshow I assumed that the FAA would be on the field so before departing RDU I went over the logs with one of the FBO's CFI and Mechanic. Had to make a appointment but was glad I did. Soon as shut down, I was approached by an inspector and his "trainee". Showed him my Pilots cert. and medical. left them to their inspection. I allowed them aboard the C-172 to have a look around. Later was informed that you dont have to give consent, but I think cooperation is the way to go. All in all quite painless,and learned a little that day...................KD
 
N2212R said:
Ok, on a serious note if they did ask to see the books and I gave a simple and less funny answer of

"I'm sorry, I don't keep the logs in the plane."

Will they still ask you to go down to the FSDO provided everything else is fine and in order (AROW + certificate + medical) and I am very cooperative and accomodating?

Highly doubtful the inspector would even ask provided you didn't tweak his/her nose. "Yes sir, I record each database entry." In fact, despite Ron's answer to the contrary, even if you yank the chain it is highly doubtful the inspector will specifically ask for the radio maintenance log since you could run home, scribble a proper notation for the database update onto a bar napkin and legally satisfy the request. Legally being that you are now in a "did so" "did not' contest with the inspector as to whether you made the entry at the appropriate time, or created it after the fact to avoid a bust. So long as the bar napkin wasn't tomorrow's local paper's mast head complete with issue date, there really isn't much the inspector can do to prove you contrived the record after today's flight. There is nothing in the FARs (or even the ACs) the preclude you from keeping the aircraft maintenance records as single sheets in a shoe box. There is nothing in the FARs requiring you to keep a record past the replacement of the item (one could argue the database).

If you yank the chain the inspector will likely move to much more potentially fruitful grounds--i.e. the entire aircraft logs and your logbook.
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
As luck would have it, I got ramp checked on my first flight after receiving my temporary cert. I flew from RDU to Burlington for the balloon festival/Airshow and to fly some Young Eagles. Because of the festival/airshow I assumed that the FAA would be on the field so before departing RDU I went over the logs with one of the FBO's CFI and Mechanic. Had to make a appointment but was glad I did. Soon as shut down, I was approached by an inspector and his "trainee". Showed him my Pilots cert. and medical. left them to their inspection. I allowed them aboard the C-172 to have a look around. Later was informed that you dont have to give consent, but I think cooperation is the way to go. All in all quite painless,and learned a little that day...................KD

You can be friendly, cooperative, and non-confrontational and still protect your rights, and your privacy. I'll not be letting the FAA search my bird anytime soon absent a court order. No professional federal officer should have a problem with that.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Highly doubtful the inspector would even ask provided you didn't tweak his/her nose.
I agree completely.

"Yes sir, I record each database entry."
If that's true, great. If not, don't lie about it, as they may ask to see the books, and if the books don't match your word, you're in a big heap of trouble -- bigger than if you said, "Record WHAT?" in which case they might settle for educating you on this recent addition to their items of interest.

There is nothing in the FARs requiring you to keep a record past the replacement of the item (one could argue the database).
43.9 is pretty clear on what has to be recorded in the maintenance records, and if it's listed as a "preventive maintenance" item in Appendix A, you've got no grounds to argue with them.

If you yank the chain the inspector will likely move to much more potentially fruitful grounds--i.e. the entire aircraft logs and your logbook.
Yup, and that was my point.
 
Joe Williams said:
You can be friendly, cooperative, and non-confrontational and still protect your rights, and your privacy. I'll not be letting the FAA search my bird anytime soon absent a court order. No professional federal officer should have a problem with that.
That is pretty much true, although we weren't talking about searches of the plane, and they do have the right for a quick look inside to confirm that the AC is in sight from the entry door. Further, the "plain sight" rule applies -- e.g., if your maintenance logs are sitting on the seat, they can demand to examine them right then and there, and you can't refuse.
 
Ron Levy said:
43.9 is pretty clear on what has to be recorded in the maintenance records, and if it's listed as a "preventive maintenance" item in Appendix A, you've got no grounds to argue with them.

Since my statement regarded how long one must keep the record (not which records must be made), you are reading the wrong FAR. In fact, you are reading the wrong FAR section. Move out of Part 43 and into Part 91 if you want to find the applicable FAR. There may be a requirement to log GPS database updates (your FAR reference would explain what to record), but, depending on which clause in the record keeping FAR you wish to argue applies to this case, each record need only be kept until the next cycle (the previous database is removed) or at most one year.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Since my statement regarded how long one must keep the record (not which records must be made), you are reading the wrong FAR. In fact, you are reading the wrong FAR section.
OK, if it's how long, then the answer is "long enough to document all requirements." There's nothing that says you can't throw away all your logs after each annual, but for other reasons, it's not a good idea.

There may be a requirement to log GPS database updates (your FAR reference would explain what to record), but, depending on which clause in the record keeping FAR you wish to argue applies to this case, each record need only be kept until the next cycle (the previous database is removed) or at most one year.

The FAA is not limited in requiring you to prove that the airplane was legally airworthy for just the most recent flight. They could require you to prove that the database was current for an IFR flight made two months ago or even two years ago, and without your log of database updates, you couldn't prove that. Lest one argue the "stale complaint" rule, "...where the possibility of an FAR violation is not reported or discovered contemporaneously, the Administrator's belated awareness thereof may serve as good cause for a delay in the issuance of a notice of proposed certificate action..." Administrator v. Zanlunghi, 3 NTSB 3696, 3697 (1981)

It ain't that hard, it ain't that expensive, and it ain't worth the potential trouble since the FAA has put us on notice that this is something they're going to look for. Get the log, log the updates (and, as long as you're keeping the log, the VOR checks, too), and keep the log.

'Nuff said.
 
So...

When is the database update performed? When I download it from Jeppesen, or when I put the card in the 430? What if I put the card in the 430, but don't turn it on. What if I download the update, but don't fly during that cycle? Do I still need to make a log entry? What if I don't own a plane but have my own Skybound card that I use in rental planes with a 430? When I remove the card from the plane do I make a log entry saying that the 430 no longer has a database update?

Part 43 Appendix A
(32) Updating self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted Air Traffic Control (ATC) navigational software data bases (excluding those of automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)) provided no disassembly of the unit is required and pertinent instructions are provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

Since I take the card out of the 430, is it still self contained?
 
N2212R said:
When is the database update performed? When I download it from Jeppesen, or when I put the card in the 430?
The latter, I should think.

What if I put the card in the 430, but don't turn it on.
I would log it when I put the card in, as that's when you actully performed the maintenance task.

What if I download the update, but don't fly during that cycle? Do I still need to make a log entry?
If you don't update the unit, you haven't updated the unit, and you have nothing to log.

What if I don't own a plane but have my own Skybound card that I use in rental planes with a 430? When I remove the card from the plane do I make a log entry saying that the 430 no longer has a database update?
I think this is moving into the dancing angels/pinhead category. If you think long enough, you can come up with questions to which there are no pat answers. But in this case, I would think you'd log the update when you put the card in, and log the removal when you take it out.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA is not limited in requiring you to prove that the airplane was legally airworthy for just the most recent flight. They could require you to prove that the database was current for an IFR flight made two months ago or even two years ago, and without your log of database updates, you couldn't prove that.

The FAA via the FARs requires:

§ 91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance , and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include -
(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and
(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and
(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.
...
(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:
(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(emphasis added)

The FAA cannot demand that an owner/operator produce a record that the owner operator is not required to have kept. Your "please prove it was an IFR legal aircraft two years ago" example will not happen without some solid records falling into the FAA's hands.

As to your irrelevant stale complaint tangent, since you opened that can of worms, the task of proving non-compliance falls upon the FAA. The FAA must prove that the pilot did indeed violate the regulations via records the FAA can locate. The FAA is not allowed to convict based on records the FAA does not have. The stale complaint issue only relates to when the clock starts, not whether or not the FAA can demand records the FARs don't require the pilot to keep. If the FAA starts the clock, you can be darn certain some piece of evidence set it ticking.

As Tom Downey is fond of saying, "A mechanic's best legal defense is bad handwriting."

Within that context an owner/operator's best legal defense is a sharp shredder.

Enough said.
 
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