VOR approach requiring DME but approach not named as VORDME

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by John777, Nov 25, 2016.

  1. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here I post the link for VOR36 approach at KPIE.
    http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1612/00625V36.PDF

    You may have noticed the text saying that DME required to fly this approach at KPIE.
    Now, my question is why did not FAA just put VORDME 36 instead of VOR36 because one will need DME to identify the fixes including FAF.

    John.
     
  2. neilw2

    neilw2 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm sure others much smarter than me will be here with the correct answer in a few, but....

    Who cares?

    It states it right on the plate that DME is required to do the procedure- you can't identify the fixes otherwise (unless of course you have a IFR cert'd GPS).

    Around the Boston area there are plenty of approaches that require RADAR contact to shoot the approach (such as the ILS 11 at KBED-as reference below). It is not called the ILS RADAR 11, and I've never bother to care as to why. Fly the approach if the chart and conditions say you can! Why over complicate things?


    https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1612/pdf/00626IL11.PDF
     
  3. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He does.

    I do too. Knowing what the significance is of where notes appear on the chart is part of understanding the chart.
     
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  4. jaybee

    jaybee Line Up and Wait

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    Probably used to have an OM beacon at BIGOO that they didn't deem it worthy of repairing.
     
  5. neilw2

    neilw2 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Why? What significance does it play? Do you do something different or require different equipment if it is a VOR/DME approach or a VOR approach with a notation stating "DME Required"? I don't feel that learning why it is one way or the other would help me understand the chart any better.
     
  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    The location of "DME Required" means something.
    • “Required” on the Planview means needed to get to an IAF from the en route environment;
    • “Required” in the Notes box means, needed for other segments of the approach,including the missed except for the final approach course;
    • "Required" in the title means needed for the final approach course, typically for step-downs.

    Discussed in AIM 3-4-5.

    Edit: slight correction. The word "required" doesn't appear in the title, "DME" does. But you get the idea.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It is required for a step down in the final approach course. BLOOP is after BIGOO (the IAF and the FAF).
     
  8. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes I do care, and I just grew to dig into it because if you see DME required there, it is more or less same as VORDME approach.
     
  9. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    New naming convention. DME is being removed from the title of XXX/DME approaches and replaced by the note "DME required."
     
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  10. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why do I need a reason?
     
  11. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Are you sure? where did you find it out ?
     
  12. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He reads each change order to the TERPS as it comes out (note his uers name).

    Paragraph 161 used to have this:

    If a procedure requires DME to fly the final approach, the suffix “DME” shall be added; e.g., LOC/DME RWY (number).

    The entire paragraph was reworded late in the history of 8230.3B (change 26 I think, 2014). This became 1-6-2 in the current (8230.3C) version of the TERPS. This provision was deleted which means that DME is not added. They had removed it from ILS (there are no ILS/DMEs created anymore) several revisions earlier.
     
  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    i understand there is also a move to either put all the notes in one pace and/or to make them more explanatory.

    The theory of "all in one place" is that since "required" means "required" all the present system does is lead to confusion.

    The theory of "more explanatory" is to allow waiver or alternatives. For example "DME required" for the missed is, practically speaking, easy enough to bypass with alternate missed instructions (I've heard that one but realize it's problematic).

    What have you heard lately on that, Wally?
     
  14. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    It's part of the consulting work I do. See attached.

    I don't know whether the AIM has been revised to reflect this change.
     

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  15. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    That's the theory. "DME Required" as a note means just that. The pilot shouldn't be required to audit the chart.
     
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  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Agreed. The second theory assumes "required" means "optional - that there is an "OR" the approach designers just didn't bother to put in.
    Just wondered what the status of those discussions was.
     
  17. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Alternate missed approaches are typically included where the missed approach goes to a nav aid different than that providing the final approach guidance. The other reason is at a towered airport where timed approaches are used. In the former case they are not supposed to use them unless the affected nav aid is OTS. In the latter case, which missed approach they use is for separation. In neither case are they a pilot option. That's one of the reason they are not charted. And, if for the first reason, often the facility doesn't even know how to find them.
     
  18. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Are there towered fields where timed approaches are used? I know there's lots of provisions for them in the regs and such, but I can't recall ever hearing one issued.
     
  19. KA550

    KA550 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Just more trolling. Should I put mustard on the top bun or bottom bun? I just can't figure it out on my own. Help.
     
  20. Rykymus

    Rykymus Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I dunno, but now I want pie.
     
  21. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    ...or, quite simply, "on the missed, turn left heading 120, climb and maintain 2,000." Very common where the published missed impinges on traffic flow to another airport nearby. Heard it many times.
     
  22. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Timed approaches can only be done at an airport with an operating tower. There are still some around, but I don't know where.
     
  23. mscard88

    mscard88 Final Approach

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    When I did Air Force ATC we practiced every so often. Never used it for real world though.
     
  24. Rykymus

    Rykymus Pre-takeoff checklist

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    VOR-A at O27 uses a DME for the MAP. It can also be a timed approach. I had to do it, timed, partial panel, no GPS as DME, on my IR checkride. No tower at that airport.
     
  25. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Was that something ATC issued or was it something that the examiner wanted to see? I've not heard of timed approaches being used in over twenty years of flying. I suspect it's largely anachronistic. It was right up there with all the pablum about MLS the FAA insisted I needed to learn about.
     
  26. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's an interesting discussion and I've learned from it, so I don't care whether he was trolling or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  27. tsts4

    tsts4 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Are you guys talking about the same thing? Using time to determine the MAP is not a timed approach (AIM 5-4-10).
     
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  28. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Good catch. Wally and I are talking about timed approaches (i.e., commencing the approach from a holding fix at a specified time). I suspect you are right Rykymus was talking about using timing to find the MAP.
     
  29. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    This is from the AIM:
     

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  30. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Two different things. Timing your approach to determine a MAP vs ATC conducting timed approached to a towered field where radar coverage doesn't exist. In the later, like Wally's example, ATC clears aircraft past the OM / FAF based on time. Generally 2 minute seperation or could be more for wake turb.
     
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  31. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And the question was, have you heard of such approaches being used? I suspect that with fairly universal radar coverage in terminal areas and the implementation of centralized flow control, the thing is a dinosaur. It's rare that even terminal arrival holding is used.
     
  32. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    I agree, with radar coverage being what it is today, I can't imagine too many facilities using non radar timed approaches, unless it's a tower in a mountainous area.

    But, the procedures are still written for facilities where either radar doesn't exist, or what mscard is getting at, you lose radar at your own facility. That's when you bust out your little non radar "cheat card" from your wallet and pray the techs get the radar back ASAP.
     
  33. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    The airport that comes to mind is Helena, Montana (KHLN). It has a non-radar approach control. Salt Lake Center handles the arrivals, then parks them in an arrival holding pattern on the ILS and terminates radar. At times there is sufficient traffic that the tower/approach control has to use timed approach procedures.
     

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  34. mscard88

    mscard88 Final Approach

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    Yup, what I thought right off. Carry on, good discussion.
     
  35. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Now I want to fly to Helena for practice approach and a burger at Lewis & Clark Brewing Company. Thanks for pointing out that Montana has instrument approach dinosaurs as well as the regular kind. :)
     
  36. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Helena also has some nifty RNP AR approaches for the well-equipped operators.
     
  37. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm not one of those. I do want to go to one of the three Air Force bases in my general flying territory and practice some precision radar approaches, but first I want to build a lot more confidence working with ATC prior to aiming my plane at a military runway.
     
  38. mscard88

    mscard88 Final Approach

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    Just request a no gyro PAR, no need to aim. :D
     
  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Which Air Force bases in your area are providing PAR approaches?
     
  40. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I haven't got that far into it, but surely between Minot, Grand Forks, and Ellsworth there should be one. If not, at least they ought to be set up for ASR approaches which I understand are flown like PAR without vertical guidance.