VFR pilot, first real IMC experience

[mtuomi]

So, I flew into a cloud inadvertently. Was flying up the shoreline a few nights ago from KMIA to KJAX, when Miami Center vectored me offshore to heading 060 or something like that to avoid traffic inbound to KFLL. Completely pitch black, no way to see horizon, half moon not visible due to an overcast layer. Still legal though. Until it wasn't. I realized I was in a cloud when I could suddenly see my rotating beacon flashing all around me.

I kept flying the assigned heading, got turned back eventually, but was still in cloud.
I got the ATIS from the nearest field, which reported overcast 035 or thereabouts. I made sure I was over water, and requested a descent to 2500. I set my hard floor at 2000, where I would reconsider my options if I wasn't clear by then. Miami Center said standby, so I kept flying until they told me altitude at my discretion. Perhaps I should have told them I was a non-rated pilot in cloud to expedite my request, but at that moment I thought (and still do), that the best thing to do was to fly as normal as possible, with reference to the instruments (which I have no problem with), and wait for them to clear me down. Any urgency would probably just have increased my workload in there.

Anyway, back to reading instrument pilots handbook. That experience made me decide I need my IR sooner rather than later.

In a weird way, I really enjoyed that.

Now: Should I report it, why and where?

 

[N801BH]

So, I flew into a cloud inadvertently. Was flying up the shoreline a few nights ago from KMIA to KJAX, when Miami Center vectored me offshore to heading 060 or something like that to avoid traffic inbound to KFLL. Completely pitch black, no way to see horizon, half moon not visible due to an overcast layer. Still legal though. Until it wasn't. I realized I was in a cloud when I could suddenly see my rotating beacon flashing all around me.

I kept flying the assigned heading, got turned back eventually, but was still in cloud.
I got the ATIS from the nearest field, which reported overcast 035 or thereabouts. I made sure I was over water, and requested a descent to 2500. I set my hard floor at 2000, where I would reconsider my options if I wasn't clear by then. Miami Center said standby, so I kept flying until they told me altitude at my discretion. Perhaps I should have told them I was a non-rated pilot in cloud to expedite my request, but at that moment I thought (and still do), that the best thing to do was to fly as normal as possible, with reference to the instruments (which I have no problem with), and wait for them to clear me down. Any urgency would probably just have increased my workload in there.

Anyway, back to reading instrument pilots handbook. That experience made me decide I need my IR sooner rather than later.

In a weird way, I really enjoyed that.

Now: Should I report it, why and where?

You are one lucky pilot....

Over water and in the soup...

 

[Velocity173]

One of the few times I took the controls from a guy was when he got disoriented flying out over the ocean at night. He was instrument rated as well!

 

[James331]

Yes, you should have declared an emergency and 7700ed your transponder if able.

Just flying along like nothing was wrong, as a VFR pilot, with controllers thinking you're VFR, that's not a smart move, saying you enjoyed it, yeah that's not saying much.

Should you report it, yeah

Here: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html

I would leave out that you had a fun time while making bad decisions.

 

[pericynthion]

No harm, no foul, get the IR.

 

[mtuomi]

Yes, you should have declared an emergency and 7700ed your transponder if able.

Just flying along like nothing was wrong, as a VFR pilot, with controllers thinking you're VFR, that's not a smart move, saying you enjoyed it, yeah that's not saying much.

Should you report it, yeah

Here: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html

I would leave out that you had a fun time while making bad decisions.

I knew someone would misinterpret when I said I enjoyed it. I did not enjoy being there, I enjoyed the feeling when I got out of there. In some weird way. Saying I had a fun time while making bad decisions is just a straw man.

My logic was, that I had no problems maintaining control and executing the plan to get out. I did not want to increase my workload any more than absolutely necessary. And communicate comes last after aviate and navigate.

 

[MAKG1]

All you had to say was "Mayday accidental IMC." I'd suggest keeping hands off the transponder as it's always out of the scan, and may be a far reach. Not much point in increasing your risk of disorientation.

Is that really more effort than requesting a descent? The Mayday would have taken care of that "stand by" and gotten IFR traffic that you can't see out of your way.

I'd also suggest avoiding playing with the radio (e.g., handoffs) as that momentary fixation (and head movement!) can put you in a bad place.

You're very lucky. This could have ended with people not being able to find your corpse.

I'm more than a little disturbed that you don't seem to grasp the gravity of your situation. Disorientation is such that it's not a factor until it is. And when that happens, you're likely dead.

 

[James331]

All you had to say was "Mayday accidental IMC." I'd suggest keeping hands off the transponder as it's always out of the scan, and may be a far reach. Not much point in increasing your risk of disorientation.

Is that really more effort than requesting a descent? The Mayday would have taken care of that "stand by" and gotten IFR traffic that you can't see out of your way.

I'd also suggest avoiding playing with the radio (e.g., handoffs) as that momentary fixation (and head movement!) can put you in a bad place.

You're very lucky. This could have ended with people not being able to find your corpse.

I'm more than a little disturbed that you don't seem to grasp the gravity of your situation. Disorientation is such that it's not a factor until it is. And when that happens, you're likely dead.

As for "enjoying it" I think my interpretation would be the same as most folks.


You screwed up, first getting into it, secondly and the larger screw up not fussing up and getting the help you needed, third and the biggest screw up, not understanding a gravity of your situation.

You lucked out, learn from it, file a NASA report and move on.

 

[warthog1984]

Welcome to the world of accidental VFR into IMC.

It can be scary- especially on a dark, moonless night. One of my CFIs described it as "lights disappearing in a very subtle and unfair manner", and as you now know- that's pretty accurate!

Congrats on not panicking and flying the plane. Now get the IR so you don't have to do it again.

 

[mtuomi]

All you had to say was "Mayday accidental IMC." I'd suggest keeping hands off the transponder as it's always out of the scan, and may be a far reach. Not much point in increasing your risk of disorientation.

Is that really more effort than requesting a descent? The Mayday would have taken care of that "stand by" and gotten IFR traffic that you can't see out of your way.

I'd also suggest avoiding playing with the radio (e.g., handoffs) as that momentary fixation (and head movement!) can put you in a bad place.

You're very lucky. This could have ended with people not being able to find your corpse.

I'm more than a little disturbed that you don't seem to grasp the gravity of your situation. Disorientation is such that it's not a factor until it is. And when that happens, you're likely dead.

Technically it was not accidental IMC, I was already IMC before I entered the cloud. I broke the VFR cloud clearance and visibility requirements. Only difference in flying was that I could see the red rotating beacon flashing around me reflecting from the cloud.

Yes, a Mayday would have been much more than requesting a descent. Requesting a climb/descent is something I do all the time, I know what to say, what response to expect, and how to read that back. Sending out a mayday would have thrown me into a completely unknown territory.

Maybe I should have added some hyperbole about panicking and being sure I was going to die, perhaps that way my appreciation of the seriousness of the situation would have come across better. Fact is, I didn't panic. I realized I was in a serious situation, I assessed the situation the best way I could at the time, came up with a solution and did it. But I do know about 2/3 of GA accidents are due o loss of control/disorientation. So yes I know and understand the gravity of those conditions.

I'll try to explain a bit better why I said I "enjoyed" it. It was a good feeling, that I got out of a serious situation by reverting back to training, keeping calm, coming up with a plan, executing it successfully, and lived to tell about it.

 

[mtuomi]

As for "enjoying it" I think my interpretation would be the same as most folks.


You screwed up, first getting into it, secondly and the larger screw up not fussing up and getting the help you needed, third and the biggest screw up, not understanding a gravity of your situation.

You lucked out, learn from it, file a NASA report and move on.

I replied to MAKG trying to explain the "enjoyment", which I guess is not a very correct term to use in this context.

NASA report filed.

 

[CharlieTango]

If you fly at night, especially on dark nights and there is weather at your altitude going IMC inadvertently is easy as pie.

I've done it at night and I've done it in daylight when forest fire smoke enveloped me. Each time there was no line of sight with ATC so I was on my own.

The gravity of such situations is dependent on the pilot and not necessarily a big deal.

 

[Dead Stick]

1. Fill out and submit the NASA ASRS form.
2. Count your blessings that you managed to avoid making a 4 minute segment in the evening news.
3. If you're going to keep screwing around at night you really need to get serious about that instrument rating.

 

[mtuomi]

If you fly at night, especially on dark nights and there is weather at your altitude going IMC inadvertently is easy as pie.

I've done it at night and I've done it in daylight when forest fire smoke enveloped me. Each time there was no line of sight with ATC so I was on my own.

The gravity of such situations is dependent on the pilot and not necessarily a big deal.

Yep, I'm not sure how you can avoid that, especially when on an ATC vector, and where the next source of light will be in Northern Africa.

 

[mtuomi]

You screwed up, first getting into it, secondly and the larger screw up not fussing up and getting the help you needed, third and the biggest screw up, not understanding a gravity of your situation.

Perhaps you would have an idea on how to avoid getting into it next time?

 

[Irish_Armada]

I'll try to explain a bit better why I said I "enjoyed" it. It was a good feeling, that I got out of a serious situation by reverting back to training, keeping calm, coming up with a plan, executing it successfully, and lived to tell about it.

Nice job. I can only hope that I perform as well if faced with such a situation.

 

[MAKG1]

Yep, I'm not sure how you can avoid that, especially when on an ATC vector, and where the next source of light will be in Northern Africa.

"Unable."

You do not have to accept all ATC instructions.

I've definitely refused a few that brought continued VMC into doubt. Even in Class B.

 

[JasonM]

Live and learn. The fact you were being vectored by ATC takes some of the dangers away, but you also were doing something illegal; knowingly being in IMC and not taking immediate action to get out of it. That would quality as an emergency for you.

That same cloud very easily could have been building ice up on your airplane and down you go. Start studying for your IR and leave the clouds alone until you have your CFII next to you.

btw. it is fun flying in the clouds! I actually prefer it, but I am new to the IFR world. Just wait until you have the rating or have a CFII next to you when you try it again. Also winter time is not the time to play in the clouds.

also, "unable" is the term you need to learn for sure!

 

[JasonM]

"Unable."

You do not have to accept all ATC instructions.

I've definitely refused a few that brought continued VMC into doubt. Even in Class B.

I have turned down a few myself inside class B when I was only VFR rated.

ATC - "N1234T Turn right heading 030, climb maintain 3000"

ME - "Approach, N1234T, Unable to climb and remain VFR"

 

[N801BH]

So, I flew into a cloud inadvertently. Was flying up the shoreline a few nights ago from KMIA to KJAX, when Miami Center vectored me offshore to heading 060 or something like that to avoid traffic inbound to KFLL. Completely pitch black, no way to see horizon, half moon not visible due to an overcast layer. Still legal though. Until it wasn't. I realized I was in a cloud when I could suddenly see my rotating beacon flashing all around me.

I kept flying the assigned heading, got turned back eventually, but was still in cloud.
I got the ATIS from the nearest field, which reported overcast 035 or thereabouts. I made sure I was over water, and requested a descent to 2500. I set my hard floor at 2000, where I would reconsider my options if I wasn't clear by then. Miami Center said standby, so I kept flying until they told me altitude at my discretion. Perhaps I should have told them I was a non-rated pilot in cloud to expedite my request, but at that moment I thought (and still do), that the best thing to do was to fly as normal as possible, with reference to the instruments (which I have no problem with), and wait for them to clear me down. Any urgency would probably just have increased my workload in there.

Anyway, back to reading instrument pilots handbook. That experience made me decide I need my IR sooner rather than later.

In a weird way, I really enjoyed that.

Now: Should I report it, why and where?

Geez man... You were out over the Atlantic... You get in clouds...... you decend:wink2: .... There are NO planes below you going into FLL and the water is O' MSL.. I can guarentee the clouds didn't go down to sea level.. Once low enough to get back VFR, do a 180 and head back toward the shoreline....

If you were VFR using flight following....... Miami Center cannot vector you.. Just cancel FF and get your ass back on the ground safely.. IMHO..

 

[Unit74]

Aviate, navigate, communicate .....

You don't need "clearance" to avoid dying.....do what you gotta do and tell ATC what you have done, if required at all.

Drop down, get back VFr and tell them why. If they have a problem with that, give them YOUR number and advise them to call when you land.(joking, but you get the picture)

 

[EminiTrader]

Before i got my IR ticket it happened to me two times inadvetantly.. I transitioned to instruments (you did this in training for PPL) and did a 180 (hopefully this to). Didnt declare an emergency as both times I was not on a squak code and was not talking to any controlling agency. Within a few seconds I was back in VFR and saw no reason to declare an emergency since I was out of it..

AVIATE, navigate, COMMUNICATE last!

I never reported it. Never did nasa... Sure I should have but I didnt... Personally you learned from it. Move on and get your IFR..

 

[mtuomi]

Geez man... You were out over the Atlantic... You get in clouds...... you decend:wink2: .... There are NO planes below you going into FLL and the water is O' MSL.. I can guarentee the clouds didn't go down to sea level.. Once low enough to get back VFR, do a 180 and head back toward the shoreline....

If you were VFR using flight following....... Miami Center cannot vector you.. Just cancel FF and get your ass back on the ground safely.. IMHO..

Yep, like I said, I got the ATIS from the nearest field to make sure visibility and cloud clearance were enough to descend (which they were easily). I wanted to make sure I was heading towards the shoreline before descending, so I could see when I was clear of clouds. Descending out to open sea would have meant I had no way to confirm I was out of the clouds.

I was in class C so I was reasonably confident I wont crash into other flying objects.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Glad you got out of it safely. I agree with the others saying that you should've declared. Don't worry about the 7700, ATC will know who you are. Just stay on the instruments to keep it upright and make a simple "Mayday, 123AB inadvertent IMC, VFR pilot."

I can never suggest enough supplemental IMC training, even for those who don't plan to fly at night, but especially for those who fly at night over water... The added freedom which comes from an instrument rating is quite rewarding and fun; Definitely go for it.

And I'd suggest watching this AOPA ASI Accident Case Study involving a VFR into IMC encounter, which sadly ended quite differently...

 

[acrophile]

My logic was, that I had no problems maintaining control

And how about traffic avoidance? Did you have any problem with *that* in zero visibility?

Traffic avoidance is the *primary* reason for IFR. If you're over water on a clear, dark night, you have no visible ground reference so you need your instruments to maintain control. But that's still VMC, because you can still see other traffic. In a cloud, you can't.

Your entry into the invisible nighttime cloud may have been blameless (or not, depending on whether clouds were forecast at that altitude). But your failure to promptly report the IMC to ATC was a serious, dangerous (to yourself and others), illegal mistake. Yes, aviate first, but that shouldn't preclude a brief emergency radio transmission after a few seconds. For your sake and mine, please don't repeat your mistake.

 

[mtuomi]

I have turned down a few myself inside class B when I was only VFR rated.

ATC - "N1234T Turn right heading 030, climb maintain 3000"

ME - "Approach, N1234T, Unable to climb and remain VFR"

Yeah, this time I had no way to tell there were clouds over there. Had I known I'd definitely say unable.

 

[mtuomi]

And how about traffic avoidance? Did you have any problem with *that* in zero visibility?

Traffic avoidance is the *primary* reason for IFR. If you're over water on a clear, dark night, you have no visible ground reference so you need your instruments to maintain control. But that's still VMC, because you can still see other traffic. In a cloud, you can't.

Your entry into the invisible nighttime cloud may have been blameless (or not, depending on whether clouds were forecast at that altitude). But your failure to promptly report the IMC to ATC was a serious, dangerous (to yourself and others), illegal mistake. Yes, aviate first, but that shouldn't preclude a brief emergency radio transmission after a few seconds. Please don't repeat your mistake.

At that time I felt that maintaining control is a higher priority than traffic avoidance in Class C under radar surveillance.
Chances of two VFR idiots in the same cloud in controlled airspace are rather small.

 

[EminiTrader]

Yaeh when I first started flying I admit I was a little uneasy about saying "unable" . but I learned.. use it two days ago at kmem ....

 

[mtuomi]

I guess I was very uneasy about saying "mayday"...

Perhaps a little bit of "mayday training" with real ATC should be added to the private syllabus.

 

[Everskyward]

My logic was, that I had no problems maintaining control and executing the plan to get out. I did not want to increase my workload any more than absolutely necessary. And communicate comes last after aviate and navigate.

If that was your logic then you made the best decision you could at the time. Other people can second-guess you and you can second-guess yourself, but you are here posting instead of in the water somewhere. Flying the airplane is always more important than flying the radio.

 

[N801BH]

If that was your logic then you made the best decision you could at the time. Other people can second-guess you and you can second-guess yourself, but you are here posting instead of in the water somewhere. Flying the airplane is always more important than flying the radio.

That is words to live by....

 

[azure]

So you learned that the plane flies pretty much the same in IMC, and that keeping the shiny side up in the clag is not rocket science.

Hopefully you know now, if you didn't before, that when you're VFR, ATC has no responsibility to separate you from IFR traffic*, and obviously you have no ability to separate yourself from them visually. So whether you can control the plane or not, you are a blind stealth weapon and a menace to aircraft who are there legally.

When you get your IR you will see it from the other side of the fence. There are pilots who do what you did intentionally. IMO they are just about the only aviation scofflaws that I wouldn't hesitate turning in.

*except in Class B and (I think) Class C airspace

 

[acrophile]

At that time I felt that maintaining control is a higher priority than traffic avoidance in Class C under radar surveillance.

Sorry, I don't see how to reconcile that explanation with your original story.

First of all, you were already tuned to ATC, so an emergency declaration would not have required changing your radio frequency. Furthermore, you were in the situation for quite some time--not just a few seconds. And finally, you did in fact communicate with ATC to request a descent. You just didn't bother to mention why that was an urgent necessity, even after they responded by telling you to stand by. None of that follows from the (correct) need to prioritize maintaining control.

 

[TMetzinger]

Technically it was not accidental IMC, I was already IMC before I entered the cloud. I broke the VFR cloud clearance and visibility requirements. Only difference in flying was that I could see the red rotating beacon flashing around me reflecting from the cloud.

Yes, a Mayday would have been much more than requesting a descent. Requesting a climb/descent is something I do all the time, I know what to say, what response to expect, and how to read that back. Sending out a mayday would have thrown me into a completely unknown territory.

Maybe I should have added some hyperbole about panicking and being sure I was going to die, perhaps that way my appreciation of the seriousness of the situation would have come across better. Fact is, I didn't panic. I realized I was in a serious situation, I assessed the situation the best way I could at the time, came up with a solution and did it. But I do know about 2/3 of GA accidents are due o loss of control/disorientation. So yes I know and understand the gravity of those conditions.

I'll try to explain a bit better why I said I "enjoyed" it. It was a good feeling, that I got out of a serious situation by reverting back to training, keeping calm, coming up with a plan, executing it successfully, and lived to tell about it.

In my opinion, the proper thing you should have done as soon as you didn't "pop right out" would be to to make that standard rate, 180 degree turn, and tell ATC that you were in IMC and making the turn. By continuing to fly into conditions you are not prepared to handle, you were increasing, rather than decreasing, the risk to yourself and to others.

When you remained in the soup, you should have told ATC immediately of the situation. They'd have treated it like the emergency it is even if you never used the word, and cleared other airplanes well away from you while giving you vectors to better conditions.

I'm glad you didn't hurt yourself or anyone else. I suspect that when you do get your rating you will look back on this episode with a certain amount of chagrin. Use that shame to improve your safety going forward.

 

[mtuomi]

Sorry, I don't see how to reconcile that explanation with your original story.

First of all, you were already tuned to ATC, so an emergency declaration would not have required changing your radio frequency. Furthermore, you were in the situation for quite some time--not just a few seconds. And finally, you did in fact communicate with ATC to request a descent. You just didn't bother to mention why that was an urgent necessity, even after they responded by telling you to stand by. None of that follows from the (correct) need to prioritize maintaining control.

Touching the radio was not a problem, I looked at a sectional to find the closest ATIS frequency, dialed that in the COM2, operated the audio panel to set COM2 to listen, wrote down the info, and so on.

Declaring an emergency would have changed my mindset from "fly the plane, turn around, descend to pre-decided altitude and get out of here" to "I need help and need to get out right now". First situation didn't really increase my heartrate, the second situation very likely would have. I was already flying the plane 100% in reference to the instruments. Changing the mindset where you operate induces disorientation.

Now I operated using standard procedures I'm familiar with, instead of opening a whole new can of worms and entering the unknown realm of an emergency. Now when they said standby, 100% of my concentration was on flying the plane. In an emergency, 10% of it would have been in the radio, figuring out what they might say next, what they might need from me, and so on.

ATC cannot help with disorientation, the only thing they could have helped me with was traffic separation. That was, admittedly, very low on my list of concerns.

 

[mtuomi]

I'm glad you didn't hurt yourself or anyone else. I suspect that when you do get your rating you will look back on this episode with a certain amount of chagrin. Use that shame to improve your safety going forward.

Yup, posting about it is part of that process.

 

[N801BH]

Yup, posting about it is part of that process.

Agreed......

 

[TMetzinger]

ATC cannot help with disorientation, the only thing they could have helped me with was traffic separation. That was, admittedly, very low on my list of concerns.

Wrong. ATC gets pireps and other information all the time and controllers build a very good mental picture of both the traffic AND THE WEATHER in their sectors. So they can do a good job of putting you in better weather, and also give you vectors to an airport so that when you do let down and break out of the clouds, you're already established on final (which they've cleared of other airplanes for you) and all you have to do is land.

As for traffic separation - think about what could have happened if you'd lost control of the airplane. You could have hit another airplane. You could have crashed into a residence somewhere (or a boat if you were over water). None of those people signed up for the risk of an unqualified pilot killing them because he was somewhere he shouldn't have been and didn't immediately fix the problem.

Let me be really clear here. My problem with you is that you didn't immediately take positive action to improve the situation. The planning for this incident should have taken root in your primary training - that's why you practice the 180 degree turn on instruments.

So - butt-chewing is complete. Now, get out and do better.

 

[warthog1984]

Touching the radio was not a problem, I looked at a sectional to find the closest ATIS frequency, dialed that in the COM2, operated the audio panel to set COM2 to listen, wrote down the info, and so on.

Declaring an emergency would have changed my mindset from "fly the plane, turn around, descend to pre-decided altitude and get out of here" to "I need help and need to get out right now".

Way to much emphasis on "Emergency" or "MAYDAY" IMO. When something like this happens, a simple "Approach, N345 has flown into a cloud. We're stable but request Vectors back into VMC" works. It's not an emergency, but it WILL get their attention.

N223CD's [air safety video posted earlier] mistake was that once they realized they were in IMC, they kept pushing to make the field. Don't be them. Fly the plane, 'fess up, and let ATC use the scopes to direct you to clear skies or talk you down.

 

[Ted]

This is why I think night flight should require an instrument rating.

Glad you made it out safely, go get the rating.