VFR guy caught on top; controllers land him IFR at KAUS

Vinny

Vinny

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
175
Location
City of the Big Shoulders
Display Name
Display name:
Cousin Vinny
Cherokee flying VFR from KNEW to Lakeway Airpark outside Austin; gets caught on top; Austin approach guides him into KAUS through the overcast. Lucky dude, and he made the right move calling for help, but sounds like some poor ADM to get him to this point.

Pilot checks in at 1738Z. Around 1748Z approach tells him the Austin airports are all around 500-700' overcast. Approach offers him VFR options around 1753Z but he doesn't have enough fuel to divert to a VFR airport. At 1801Z he estimates he has a range of 60 miles with his fuel. They vector him in starting around 1808Z and he lands at KAUS around 1855Z.

Story here:
http://www.khou.com/news/national/248114991.html

Flightaware track:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N141SW/history/20140302/1435Z/KBTR/3R9

LiveATC feeds:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kaus/KAUS2-Mar-02-2014-1730Z.mp3
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kaus/KAUS2-Mar-02-2014-1800Z.mp3
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kaus/KAUS2-Mar-02-2014-1830Z.mp3

Weather:

KATT 021606Z AUTO 02007G15KT 4SM -RA BKN007 OVC015 10/07 A3004 RMK AO2 P0000 T01000072

KATT 021651Z AUTO 36012G19KT 4SM -RA BR OVC006 06/04 A3008 RMK AO2 SLP182 P0000 T00610039
KAUS 021653Z 02015KT 3SM -RA BR OVC007 07/06 A3004 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 6 SLP173 P0000 T00720061

KAUS 021753Z 34015KT 3SM -RA BR OVC006 04/03 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP175 P0000 60000 T00440033 10222 20044 51027
KATT 021755Z AUTO 36007G15KT 3SM -RA BR OVC005 04/02 A3007 RMK AO2 P0000 T00440022

KATT 021851Z AUTO 33007G16KT 3SM -RA BR OVC006 04/02 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP176 P0002 T00390017
KAUS 021753Z 34015KT 3SM -RA BR OVC006 04/03 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP175 P0000 60000 T00440033 10222 20044 51027

PS - if you want to call him, he gives out his mobile number at 1804Z. :D
 
Last edited:
Poor CRM,also poor preplanning,why go VFR on top if your not IFR rated?
 
frfly172 said:
Poor CRM,also poor preplanning,why go VFR on top if your not IFR rated?
Click to expand...

I fly VFR on top when going over the mountains. I just make certain that the wx is clear when I get over the mountains, which it often is. But no matter the trip, it doesn't start until the flatlands are clear. Got XM wx, so I can tell if they stay that way. If not, go back. Gotta have outs when you do it VFR.
 
He's got some 'splaining to do. I'm sure he got a number to call.
 
I'm glad that he got down safely and realized that he needed to ask for help at least.
 
I'm wondering if the airlines who had to burn 30 minutes of Jet A can bill him? It only takes a few minutes to call F.S for a preflight briefing before you leave, even if you didn't want to bother with a full flight plan workup.

-John
 
frfly172 said:
Poor CRM,also poor preplanning,why go VFR on top if your not IFR rated?
Click to expand...

He didn't. He went VFR over the top. Big difference. Obviously he made some mistakes. Having been over the top more times than I can count, I think it is a pretty safe thing to do if you have the fuel and are certain you can get back down on the other side, or turn around.
 
Direct C51 said:
He didn't. He went VFR over the top. Big difference. Obviously he made some mistakes. Having been over the top more times than I can count, I think it is a pretty safe thing to do if you have the fuel and are certain you can get back down on the other side, or turn around.
Click to expand...

Yup, I've done it as well - but always with options and lots of fuel.
 
Direct C51 said:
He didn't. He went VFR over the top. Big difference. Obviously he made some mistakes. Having been over the top more times than I can count, I think it is a pretty safe thing to do if you have the fuel and are certain you can get back down on the other side, or turn around.
Click to expand...

But it wasn't clear on the other side. Could have turned out badly for the pilot. Hope the pilot learned a lesson,and did not get complacent ,since he made it.
 
I've got 1000 mile range in the Comanche. Very easy to go over the top, and done it plenty of times.
 
The subject pilot sounded pretty calm. The WTF from me came when the subject pilot asked Austin Approach where the nearest VFR airport was, and they told him Stinson in San Antonio. The VFR pilot said that was too far!!

Stinson is just down the road!!!!

You're a VFR pilot, you come over the top to an IMC airport, and you can't fly 66 nautical miles to VMC, assuming you fly all the way to KAUS and then turned left!!!!!!! :hairraise:

Heck, Stinson even has a cafe on the field!!!!:(
 
JimNtexas said:
You're a VFR pilot, you come over the top to an IMC airport, and you can't fly 66 nautical miles to VMC, assuming you fly all the way to KAUS and then turned left!!!!!!! :hairraise:
Click to expand...

Well, that's more than the minimum VFR reserve fuel….

Sounds like this guy was trying to push the range of his aircraft. Seems like a common refrain.
 
frfly172 said:
Poor CRM,also poor preplanning,why go VFR on top if your not IFR rated?
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Running low on fuel isn't the only issue you might encounter that forces you back through a cloud layer. Flying VRF into IFR has helped sell a lot of instrument ratings and sadly killed good pilots.

I'm glad he made it back on the ground safely and hats off to the controllers for their professional help.

Bill D.
 
I've gone over the top many times VFR. But I make sure I have plenty of fuel and an out someplace. I also fly a twin, so that makes it a little less risky in my book. I would not have the nerve to do it in a single, personally.

I almost got caught once and faced a long diversion or a possible IFR letdown (not rated, but trained), but luckily found a wormhole and could box descend below before it closed. Had plenty of fuel.
 
It's very very rare for me to go vfr over-the-top unless I'm in an IFR legal airplane. Having flown enough IMC to know that sometimes what you expect isn't what happens I'd rather not be stuck on top. There can be some weather scenarios where it makes sense, like on the coast, but those doing it often in my part of the country are asking for trouble and really should be getting an instrument rating.
 
390nm +/- from KNEW to KAUS. That seems like a pretty long leg for a Cherokee to me.
 
What did the pilot mean when he said "When he lands, can we chase him?"?
 
frfly172 said:
Poor CRM,also poor preplanning,why go VFR on top if your not IFR rated?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with being on top VFR, as long as your destination airport is VFR and you can descend clear of clouds. :dunno:


I was caught on top after a bad decision to launch in MVFR. :redface: After an hour of looking for VFR I called ATC and they vectored me to an area with 3000' ceilings. I started my descent at 13,500' (to remain above the clouds). Took me 15 mins to get to clear skies. Picked up ice on the way down. That was a long day. :yes:

When in doubt remember the "4 Cs". Communicate, Confess, Conserve, and Comply.
 
Last edited:
Palmpilot said:
I was taught that there was a "climb" in there somewhere.
Click to expand...

That's what I was taught and teach.

We had a skylane stuck on top a few days ago. Our ASOS was reporting SCT @ 1400' but in reality it was OVC @ 1000'. A inbound Falcon said every bit of info our was giving ASOS was wrong. It's only right about 50% of the time. :eek:
 
Geico266 said:
Nothing wrong with being on top VFR, as long as your destination airport is VFR and you can descend clear of clouds. :dunno:


I was caught on top after a bad decision to launch in MVFR. :redface: After an hour of looking for VFR I called ATC and they vectored me to an area with 3000' ceilings. I started my descent at 13,500' (to remain above the clouds). Took me 15 mins to get to clear skies. Picked up ice on the way down. That was a long day. :yes:

When in doubt remember the "4 Cs". Communicate, Confess, Conserve, and Comply.
Click to expand...

The problem is that there is no guarantee you will be able to descend as you experienced. I've done many IFR flights where the destination was forecast to be vfr and I end up flying an approach, often times to minimums.

At the end of the day people can do as they wish. I teach my students that it's almost never worth it to place yourself on top of a solid overcast, what they choose to do later in their flying career is out of my hands but at least I can say I tried.
 
jesse said:
The problem is that there is no guarantee you will be able to descend as you experienced. I've done many IFR flights where the destination was forecast to be vfr and I end up flying an approach, often times to minimums.

At the end of the day people can do as they wish. I teach my students that it's almost never worth it to place yourself on top of a solid overcast, what they choose to do later in their flying career is out of my hands but at least I can say I tried.
Click to expand...

I'll disagree there and say it also depends on the plane and situation. Cherokee at the end of a leg over widespread IFR? Not a good combination.

182RG with the long-range tanks, O2, and going with the winds over some local clouds at the start of a trip? no problem!
 
Last edited:
It also depends on where you fly. Here in California, if it's not stormy, then one can usually find VFR approach and landing conditions within a reasonable distance by crossing a mountain range.
 
And if it's due to marine layer (like, every day in summer) 20 miles east will take care of it. Sometimes a lot less.
 
Last edited:
From Eastern CA to Portland Or, I have gone up HWY 5 squeezed by the ceiling and the terrain and finding an unpleasant bumpy ride. OR VFR on top strait line. On top for over an hour but perfectly smooth with peaks always visible.

These days with weather on my moving map I can see close to real time where my VFR options are. VFR on top makes sense in CA and OR.
 
warthog1984 said:
That was the crash/fire truck, not the pilot.
Click to expand...

You may be right but not sure why they would chase him since the plane was fine and landing uneventful.

I interpreted it as an angry pilot wanting to kick some ass for closing the airport for half an hour.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top