VFR - Getting a code early

ChrisK

ChrisK

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So as I said in my other thread, had a wonderful flight to and from 76G over Canada this weekend. Weather was awesome, and aside from the 25 knot headwind on the way there significantly increasing the cost / time involved in the outbound trip (see: need a faster plane!), I was able to complete my visit and get back just in time for another instrument lesson.

One of the issues departing over Lake St. Clair on the return trip is that I don't have a lot of time to talk to ATC before hitting Canada, and it looks like Selfridge approach opens at 8 AM local. If I'm departing at 8 AM, would it be possible to get in the system before I depart, and get a code? Should I call Detroit approach? And where would I find the phone number if so?

I can always ask FSS to open my flight plan on the ground, so of course that is not an issue.
 
ChrisK said:
So as I said in my other thread, had a wonderful flight to and from 76G over Canada this weekend. Weather was awesome, and aside from the 25 knot headwind on the way there significantly increasing the cost / time involved in the outbound trip (see: need a faster plane!), I was able to complete my visit and get back just in time for another instrument lesson.

One of the issues departing over Lake St. Clair on the return trip is that I don't have a lot of time to talk to ATC before hitting Canada, and it looks like Selfridge approach opens at 8 AM local. If I'm departing at 8 AM, would it be possible to get in the system before I depart, and get a code? Should I call Detroit approach? And where would I find the phone number if so?

I can always ask FSS to open my flight plan on the ground, so of course that is not an issue.
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I believe you should be able to reach Detroit Approach or center long before entering Canadian airspace and whichever controls the airspace you're in will give you a code. I wouldn't cross the border without that given the TSA/DHS's distain for the freedom we pilots have. The AFD should have the frequency you'd use.
 
gismo said:
I believe you should be able to reach Detroit Approach or center long before entering Canadian airspace and whichever controls the airspace you're in will give you a code. I wouldn't cross the border without that given the TSA/DHS's distain for the freedom we pilots have. The AFD should have the frequency you'd use.
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I know I can pick it up while airborne as I've done that a few times. I was wondering if it was acceptable / possible to get it before I departed just to lessen my workload slightly in the climb and give me a little more peace of mind. The good news is I have 6-7 minutes after departure to get the code without having to hold short of the border. The bad news is it is a busy 6-7 minutes =)
 
ChrisK said:
I know I can pick it up while airborne as I've done that a few times. I was wondering if it was acceptable / possible to get it before I departed just to lessen my workload slightly in the climb and give me a little more peace of mind. The good news is I have 6-7 minutes after departure to get the code without having to hold short of the border. The bad news is it is a busy 6-7 minutes =)
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A call to the TRACON watch desk long before the flight would probably net you a number to call for the code. I've never tried this but you might also be able to arrange flight following from the ground through FSS, just like getting an IFR clearance relayed through them.
 
gismo said:
A call to the TRACON watch desk long before the flight would probably net you a number to call for the code. I've never tried this but you might also be able to arrange flight following from the ground through FSS, just like getting an IFR clearance relayed through them.
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I will call and discuss the theory. Do you know where I can get the number?
 
If your departing airport has a tower and Radar, you can ask for a squawk from ground. Not all towers can do it, but I usually ask, anyway. The worst that happens is they say unable.
 
ChrisK said:
I will call and discuss the theory. Do you know where I can get the number?
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In the AFD. It looks like Marine City is in Cleveland Center's airspace. The watch desk ("24 hr duty office") phone # is 847 294-8400.
 
John221us said:
If your departing airport has a tower and Radar, you can ask for a squawk from ground. Not all towers can do it, but I usually ask, anyway. The worst that happens is they say unable.
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76G not only doesn't have a tower, it doesn't even have an IFR approach and is far from any public airport with approach control. When they are open Sulfridge field (military) does have radar and would be the ones to talk with.
 
gismo said:
In the AFD. It looks like Marine City is in Cleveland Center's airspace. The watch desk ("24 hr duty office") phone # is 847 294-8400.
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Thank you!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
gismo said:
76G not only doesn't have a tower, it doesn't even have an IFR approach and is far from any public airport with approach control. When they are open Sulfridge field (military) does have radar and would be the ones to talk with.
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And yeah Selfridge approach is usually from whom I get flight following.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
I operate from an untowered field and am within 5 minutes of two different class C's. I have had to divert a few times when ATC was busy, but that seems easier to me than trying to track down a squawk code from the ground and it doesn't happen that often. Preload your freqs and switching ATC isn't that big of a deal. Of course with class C, you just have to hear them say your tail number and you are good. You don't have to have the squawk before entering the airspace. I am not sure about entering Canada, as I have never done it.
 
In practice I've found that it is unlikely that many facilities (unless you are on the ground at a class B or C airport) will get you a code on the ground for VFR. More often than not you'll just be told to call them in the air.

Back in the pre-SFRA i regularly tried to get a squawk from HEF's tower on the ground. They said Dulles wouldn't issue them to VFRs but would just give me the frequency change immediately on breaking ground so I could call.
 
Chris, this is exactly the situation that motivated me originally to use the so-called IFR-VFR method to file and open my flight plan for crossing through Canadian airspace. It will not get you a squawk on the ground, but it does avoid having to call FSS in the air to open a VFR flight plan, thus eliminating one time-consuming step. If you are interested I could post or PM you the details. The only fly in the ointment is the Goodish letter from the Chief Counsel, which puts it in the public record that the FAA takes the idiotic position that filing this way can be used as evidence of intent to operate IFR. I am quite sure that if they tried to argue that, I could convince anyone with half a brain that I had no such intent, and I can't imagine any realistic situation where it would even come up, unless you actually accepted an IFR clearance, and the chances are very small that you would even be offered one. Personally I would not be deterred from using the method if for some reason I couldn't or didn't want to go IFR. But, YMMV.
 
flyingron said:
In practice I've found that it is unlikely that many facilities (unless you are on the ground at a class B or C airport) will get you a code on the ground for VFR. More often than not you'll just be told to call them in the air.
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There are a few Class D's that can do it. KDTO is one. Darn convenient it is to plug in on the ground and then have DFW Regional Approach waiting on you to check in once you're airborne.

But as said before, just ask the Ground Controller if it's available and you'll get the :yes: or :no: answer.
 
To piggy back on Azure's post ...
Rather than doing the IFR/VFR thing, I typically open my flight plan by phone from the ground - "Activate my VFR flight plan 5 minutes from now" (and then they confirm the zulu time I want it opened). (Caveats apply about not already being airborne and maybe not becoming airborne ... ie, unless you're a smoking hole, you'll want to be cognizant of any delays in departing and notify FSS as needed.)

Departing the area (57D is about equal to 76G), crossing towards Cleveland, when Selfridge is not open yet, I've often found that I can't raise Cleveland Center until after I've climbed a good bit - circling while doing so.
In lieu of the circle maneuver (which isn't always a viable option due to ceilings), I will contact Detroit Approach.
I've even used them to get a squawk when heading east across Ontario to Buffalo, explaining that I couldn't reach Cleveland Center yet.
 
JoeSelch said:
To piggy back on Azure's post ...
Rather than doing the IFR/VFR thing, I typically open my flight plan by phone from the ground - "Activate my VFR flight plan 5 minutes from now" (and then they confirm the zulu time I want it opened). (Caveats apply about not already being airborne and maybe not becoming airborne ... ie, unless you're a smoking hole, you'll want to be cognizant of any delays in departing and notify FSS as needed.)
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I've done that too -- and it usually works. I believe it's technically called an "assumed departure time". Unfortunately, a few times I've gotten a briefer who just told me to contact Flight Service once airborne. The last time this happened to me was departing from Put-in Bay.

If you're uncomfortable about using the "IFR-VFR" method though, asking for an assumed departure time on the phone is probably your next best choice.
 
azure said:
Chris, this is exactly the situation that motivated me originally to use the so-called IFR-VFR method to file and open my flight plan for crossing through Canadian airspace. It will not get you a squawk on the ground, but it does avoid having to call FSS in the air to open a VFR flight plan, thus eliminating one time-consuming step. If you are interested I could post or PM you the details. The only fly in the ointment is the Goodish letter from the Chief Counsel, which puts it in the public record that the FAA takes the idiotic position that filing this way can be used as evidence of intent to operate IFR. I am quite sure that if they tried to argue that, I could convince anyone with half a brain that I had no such intent, and I can't imagine any realistic situation where it would even come up, unless you actually accepted an IFR clearance, and the chances are very small that you would even be offered one. Personally I would not be deterred from using the method if for some reason I couldn't or didn't want to go IFR. But, YMMV.
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Filing IFR doesn't require the rating, accepting an IFR clearance should be the only "evidence" of import in any enforcement action of that nature. Where intent usually comes into play is when someone tries but fails to do something illegal and I can't see how that cold apply here if you didn't request or accept a clearance.
 
azure said:
I've done that too -- and it usually works. I believe it's technically called an "assumed departure time". Unfortunately, a few times I've gotten a briefer who just told me to contact Flight Service once airborne. The last time this happened to me was departing from Put-in Bay.

If you're uncomfortable about using the "IFR-VFR" method though, asking for an assumed departure time on the phone is probably your next best choice.
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I always use the assumed departure method especially for the four minute Put-in-Bay to Pelee Island flight. Never been refused.
 
gismo said:
Filing IFR doesn't require the rating, accepting an IFR clearance should be the only "evidence" of import in any enforcement action of that nature. Where intent usually comes into play is when someone tries but fails to do something illegal and I can't see how that cold apply here if you didn't request or accept a clearance.
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Neither does anyone else with two brain cells to rub together, but the Almighty Chief Counsel disagrees. Go figure. :)
 
greghughes said:
I'm interested in hearing more about this. Thanks.
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When filing your flight plan, check IFR instead of VFR. But do NOT enter an altitude in the altitude box, enter "VFR". You can also optionally enter an altitude, but the altitude string must begin with the letters "VFR" (e.g., to file for 4500 MSL, you would put "VFR/045"). This generates not an IFR strip in the ATC system, but a VFR strip like what would be generated for you when you call up for flight following. It has the advantage that ATC can see all of your information at a glance (aircraft type, equipment suffix, route) that you would have to give verbally if you just called them up cold.

There is a small chance that an inexperienced controller might be confused by seeing a VFR strip on an initial call up (i.e., not associated with a handoff) and think that you want an IFR. If you are offered a clearance and do not want to go IFR, you just refuse the clearance, no harm, no foul.

Last I checked Foreflight does not support alphabetic characters in the altitude field. So you have to do this through DUATS directly, or through FSS.
 
What would your initial call to approach be? "Skyhawk 1666V 2000' off of 76G" ?
 
ChrisK said:
What would your initial call to approach be? "Skyhawk 1666V 2000' off of 76G" ?
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Yes, same as if you were calling up cold. To expedite things I usually add that they should have a VFR strip for me. I usually get a squawk PDQ.
 
azure said:
When filing your flight plan, check IFR instead of VFR. But do NOT enter an altitude in the altitude box, enter "VFR". You can also optionally enter an altitude, but the altitude string must begin with the letters "VFR" (e.g., to file for 4500 MSL, you would put "VFR/045"). This generates not an IFR strip in the ATC system, but a VFR strip like what would be generated for you when you call up for flight following. It has the advantage that ATC can see all of your information at a glance (aircraft type, equipment suffix, route) that you would have to give verbally if you just called them up cold.

There is a small chance that an inexperienced controller might be confused by seeing a VFR strip on an initial call up (i.e., not associated with a handoff) and think that you want an IFR. If you are offered a clearance and do not want to go IFR, you just refuse the clearance, no harm, no foul.

Last I checked Foreflight does not support alphabetic characters in the altitude field. So you have to do this through DUATS directly, or through FSS.
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FF will file SFRA plans, which I have been told is the VFR/IFR plan you speak of. I suspect it doesnt work welll outside the SFRA, as KCLT didnt see my plan filed when returning home awhile back. Try it and let me know.
 
Jaybird180 said:
FF will file SFRA plans, which I have been told is the VFR/IFR plan you speak of. I suspect it doesnt work welll outside the SFRA, as KCLT didnt see my plan filed when returning home awhile back. Try it and let me know.
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How do you enter "VFR" for an altitude in FF? I just tried it. In the altitude advisor, I could enter numeric characters from the keyboard but not alphabetic ones. In File and Brief, clicking on the altitude field brings up a selector wheel, there is no way that I can see to type in an altitude.

Flight plans do sometimes get lost in the system. Once I had filed to go IFR from PTK to VLL (15 miles, but conditions were IFR) and they couldn't bring up my flight plan. Stuff happens, but it's not that the filing method doesn't work (assuming it's the same method).
 
When you make your flight plan in FF, press the "send to" button to sent to File and Breif. Under flight rules, I have 3 choices, one of them being SFRA. LMK what you find.
 
Jaybird180 said:
When you make your flight plan in FF, press the "send to" button to sent to File and Breif. Under flight rules, I have 3 choices, one of them being SFRA. LMK what you find.
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I do see SFRA as one of the choices. But from the ForeFlight PG's description, it sounds like you need to be either departing or entering the SFRA to use it. I've never flown in or near the SFRA nor had training on SFRA flight plans, but I suspect there are significant differences from what we're talking about here.
 
The SFRA mode does this:

1. Sets the plan type to IFR
2. Sets the remarks to SFRA DUATS
3. Sets the altitude to VFR/alt

Frankly, the remarks thing is spurious. Unless you file within the SFRA (or one of the gates), such that your strip is routed to PCT or one towers within, the controller isn't even going to understand what that is all about. Even PCT doesn't really give a hoot about the remarks. It's just there because somebody wanted to stave off further whining from idiots about ticking the IFR box when you're VFR.
 
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