VFR departure with intent to pick up IFR half-way

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Flying into PHX later this week and may stop overnight at Telluride if the weather is good.

I always go IFR into PHX for better handling, but since I don't have O2 in the Baron, picking up my clearance upon departure from TEX isn't a real option.

I was thinking I'd file just before departing VFR from TEX for Winslow to Phoenix with my departure time coinciding with my ETA at INW and contacting Albuquerque Center to pick up my clearance when I am over Winslow.

Is that the best way to do it, or is there a better way?
 
Sounds like the way I'd do it. It's hard to pick up an IFR clearance at NC26 (private field just on the fringe of CLT approach's airspace). I just file SVH as my departure point and pick it up from ZTL (who controls the approaches there).
 
Easiest?...probably.

If you do not want to have to worry about the timing of making sure that you hit INW and your flight plan dropping outta the system or being there at your arrival time you would file a composite flight plan which would be VFR on the first part and IFR second part and open IFR once you hit INW.

In reality...I do exactly as you are proposing or just ask for a pop up well ahead of time. Altough I have gotten some pretty crappy routings on pop ups.
 
A "composite" flight plan offers *NO* advantage in this situation. In fact, when filed all it ends up being is split into two flight plans.

The ETA at INW is no different than the ETD in any other situation. You file for when you think you're going to need it and hope you hit whatever the facilities window on plans are (typically -30 min / + 2hours).
 
Pick up flight following from the get go, and tell them you will be wanting IFR down the line. I've done that before too.
 
EdFred said:
Pick up flight following from the get go, and tell them you will be wanting IFR down the line. I've done that before too.
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If I could reach Albuquerque Center for FF, I'd be able to go ahead and get the IFR. That the trouble with NE AZ/SW CO- MEAs for comms are in the 13-14k range.
 
It varies around the country as to how pop-ups can be handled. I can tell you that out in some places if you have FF and you say "I'd like IFR at 9000 now" they just say "Cleared to DESTINATION climb and maintian 9000." In other places you'll be sent to FSS to file a proper IFR flight plan and you can come back to their frequency when it works the way through the system to them.
 
On a regular basis I depart home in good vfr and head east to where all the crud fills the sky. If I go ifr from home, as a /A aircraft I will likely get a circuitous route to follow the airways.
So, I look at metars & sat images and decide where I will hit it. I file radial and distance from a vor....usually half way down the road, near the edge of the cloud deck; typically I can usually guess the arrival time at that fix within 15mins.

I depart vfr, fly direct in clear skies then pick up the clearance at or near the fix (thus skipping the circuitous routing). 500' altitude change & transponder code and I am away!
 
I do this often. Because I tend to climb into the flight levels I eventually need an IFR clearance but often will want to depart someplace VFR, do a little sightseeing down low doing whatever I want then pick up the clearance. The way I usually do it is to file from some convenient airport approximately where I want the IFR clearance from then at the appropriate time I just pull up Foreflight have a look at the IFR low charts, find the appropriate frequency, call them up and ask for my clearance from that airport explaining that I'm already in the air at 5500 feet or whatever. Easy peasy. Just like taking off from an uncontrolled airport and getting your clearance in the air.
 
EdFred said:
Pick up flight following from the get go, and tell them you will be wanting IFR down the line. I've done that before too.
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I have a friend who does something like this. He is based at an airport under the DFW Bravo shelf on the north east side and if he needs to go south in summer and doesn't want to be kept low in the heat and turbulence, what he says he does is get his clearance from his airport tower but inform them he intends to depart VFR in the opposite direction out to the north east and activate it later. He then climbs to an altitude above the top of the Bravo, then heads back south west to his airport which he crosses at 12,500 feet or something like that above the Bravo and then asks to activate his IFR plan at that point. This way he doesn't have to cross the Bravo down low in the summer bumps. I've never done this myself but thought it sounded pretty slick!
 
flyingron said:
A "composite" flight plan offers *NO* advantage in this situation.
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flyingron said:
You file for when you think you're going to need it and hope you hit whatever the facilities window on plans are (typically -30 min / + 2hours).
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That is the only advantage actually. Once your VFR flight plan is open, you don't need to worry about hitting that time window to be at your "departure" point to pick up your IFR as I understand it.

Now practically, I agree...it is useless because of you can't hit a point within that big of a time window you have bigger issues. For the OP, it is an option, albeit not a great one but a tool nonetheless to understand all his options to have your IFR plan in the system and waiting.
 
You understand wrong. A composite flight plan is only "composite" on the form you fill it out on. Once Flight Service gets it, it is entered as two separate flight plans, one IFR, one VFR. You have no extra "ETA" time corrections.
 
File from an airport, VOR or fix from which you'd like to pick up the clearance. The plan is good for up to two hours from the ETD (and 30 mins prior if memory serves), so that should be a wide enough window, you don't have to be bang on.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If I could reach Albuquerque Center for FF, I'd be able to go ahead and get the IFR. That the trouble with NE AZ/SW CO- MEAs for comms are in the 13-14k range.
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I've flown in that area many years ago, and never had problems with FF. You don't need to be at MEA. Just fly west for about 20 miles from TEX. You will be out of the big mountains and you should not have problems being picked up on radar. From there to PHX should be straightforward.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If I could reach Albuquerque Center for FF, I'd be able to go ahead and get the IFR. That the trouble with NE AZ/SW CO- MEAs for comms are in the 13-14k range.
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Now that WAM is up in that area things might be just a little bit different. You'll find out one way or the other going in...
 
I VFR into PHX regularly and 90% of the time I get great sequencing. YMMV tho
 
Fearless Tower said:
Good to know. Last time I was there 3 years ago, you'd lose ATC below 12.5.
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I don't know about the southern part of the state but the floor on comms has dropped a couple thousand feet in the northern mountains. It used to be that center wouldn't take a hand-off from departure unless I was at least 12,000 and now they don't seem to care much about my altitude.

Not much helpful info for your trip but at least they are improving the system. Maybe Nate knows if any VHF equipment was added along with the WAM boxes. I know ADS-B was installed with the WAM around TEX.
 
Clark1961 said:
Not much helpful info for your trip but at least they are improving the system. Maybe Nate knows if any VHF equipment was added along with the WAM boxes. I know ADS-B was installed with the WAM around TEX.
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I could ask. I don't know the northern CO tower sites as well as the central and southern. I do know the State built some really nice IP back haul stuff all over the State so maybe they did some "joint venture" stuff with the Feds up north. Down south there are some joint venture State/Military sites. I suspect they'd happily share expenses with the Feds at some other sites.

Comm is a lot easier nut to crack that "radar", and WAM really filled in that problem nicely. Doing an RCO for ZDV is a well defined and much simpler problem to tackle. A few high sites and a backhaul for audio bandwidth and its up. (Plus redundancy and monitoring...)

There probably wasn't much reason to fill in the Comm coverage until the "radar" solution was in place. But at most sites if the backhaul is in place, putting up the actual radio gear is a one day visit by the techs in good weather. It's actually harder to plan the frequency to use from the high site and coordinate it to avoid interference (plus chart changes, etc.) than to actually tune and install the gear.
 
OP's plan seems reasonable - I would go VFR and definitely use FF - and try to pick up your IFR in the middle of a sector - so you have time to do it.

In many places there are challenges getting ATC to listen and offer the service to open an IFR flight plan - in those places you might need to try to open IFR right after and ask if you can simply go 'on top' VFR which is your case means being below the MEA. . . .
 
Good subject! It is one I would like to get proficient at. Here is a scenerio: Say one has a 600NM flight, and the first 200 miles has an MEA of 13K but the remaining 400NM has an MEA of 7K or less. If icing is forecast from 8K to 20K, I can't depart IFR for those first 200NM. But, I can find a route VFR through some river basins as low as 4K. So, suppose I file for IFR beginning 200NM out but once I get there, say the ceiling is at 5K MSL. How do I get the clearance from 5K to the MEA of 7K once I arrive at the IFR departure point? Is is likely that ATC would just assign vectors for the climb?
 
skidoo said:
How do I get the clearance from 5K to the MEA of 7K once I arrive at the IFR departure point? Is is likely that ATC would just assign vectors for the climb?
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Well, I think that depends on whether they see you on radar or not. I've left uncontrolled airports VFR before with the intent to get my clearance in the air. But then I discover that I can't get high enough for ATC to see me although they can hear me. In this case ATC has just asked me if I can maintain my own terrain clearance which I can so I say yes, and they then give me my clearance with the instruction to maintain my own terrain clearance through a certain altitude.
 
sixpacker said:
Well, I think that depends on whether they see you on radar or not. I've left uncontrolled airports VFR before with the intent to get my clearance in the air. But then I discover that I can't get high enough for ATC to see me although they can hear me. In this case ATC has just asked me if I can maintain my own terrain clearance which I can so I say yes, and they then give me my clearance with the instruction to maintain my own terrain clearance through a certain altitude.
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That is a great option! Now, I am wondering about reversing this. Say, I am coming back and want to descend to 5K so I can cancel and continue on VFR. Any options easily available. I could think of an approach to a nearby airport to get below the ceiling. Once below, could I cancel IFR and then cancel the landing and continue to my destination, or is this a no-no...? Would I need to land first?
 
skidoo said:
That is a great option! Now, I am wondering about reversing this. Say, I am coming back and want to descend to 5K so I can cancel and continue on VFR. Any options easily available. I could think of an approach to a nearby airport to get below the ceiling. Once below, could I cancel IFR and then cancel the landing and continue to my destination, or is this a no-no...? Would I need to land first?
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You can cancel IFR anytime once you're in VFR conditions. Being someone who flies mostly for pleasure I do this all the time especially if I'm getting close to a place where I want to fly around and do some sight seeing. If the ceilings are fairly low but still VFR you can ask ATC what is the lowest they can get you and ask for it. You can check the nearby airports to see whether it is feasible to go VFR. If it is then you just ask them for that lowest altitude then once you're VFR you cancel IFR with them. I'm not one for scud running so for me I won't do this if the ceilings are below 1500 ft AGL. In theory I suppose you could do an approach at a nearby airport to get below the ceiling then cancel IFR and not continue landing but that sounds awfully like setting up for scud running.
 
Sure, why not? It's a simple and effective way to get it done, not that I ever had an issue getting into PHX VFR.
 
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