VFR Canada Overflight and New ICAO Flight Plan Rules

JoeSelch

JoeSelch

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
1,907
Location
Detroit-ish
Display Name
Display name:
JoeSelch
Called FSS to file VFR flight plans this weekend because I was likely to be crossing into Canadian airspace.

Filed both outbound and return trips in my initial call just as I have been for the past several years - no problem. Only difference was the briefer, at some point, said "ICAO" as he was thinking out loud, but that was the only mention.

When I called on the phone to activate my return plan the briefer said it needed to be an ICAO plan. Then, led me through a long and convoluted process to get that done (he was using some sort of job aid to complete the process and admitted it was new / unfamiliar to him). At the end, he put me on hold for several minutes then came back and said the ICAO plan was not needed and we would go back to my original plan.

I've done some poking around and, so far, the only documents I've found seem to be saying that I should have had an ICAO plan.

So ... What's really going on here? Does anyone have a link to a good reference?
 
I feel like the equipment codes for the newest ICAO flight plans are designed to prevent any flights from actually occurring! :mad:

It took me hours and many different references to come up with the equipment codes for our club planes. What a PITA!
 
You can file an ICAO flight plan on DUATS or Fltplan.com.

I think you need an ICAO flight plan when overflying Canada, at least according to one FSS person in Anchorage. I went to pick up our flight plan from Anchorage to Denver but it was not in the system so I tried to file again on the phone. I started reading the domestic flight plan sequence to the FSS person but nooo, that wasn't good enough. She said it had to be an ICAO flight plan. I said if that was the case I would need prompting.
 
Everskyward said:
I think you need an ICAO flight plan when overflying Canada, at least according to one FSS person in Anchorage. I went to pick up our flight plan from Anchorage to Denver but it was not in the system so I tried to file again on the phone. I started reading the domestic flight plan sequence to the FSS person but nooo, that wasn't good enough. She said it had to be an ICAO flight plan. I said if that was the case I would need prompting.
Click to expand...
Yes, all the FAA documents I've found are pretty explicit that an IFR flight plan needs to be ICAO format now unless the flight is entirely within U.S. domestic airspace. So IFR flight plans that overfly Canada must be ICAO. But Liz is asking about VFR flight plans. I've looked too and I can't find any guidance online about that question.
 
azure said:
Yes, all the FAA documents I've found are pretty explicit that an IFR flight plan needs to be ICAO format now unless the flight is entirely within U.S. domestic airspace. So IFR flight plans that overfly Canada must be ICAO. But Liz is asking about VFR flight plans. I've looked too and I can't find any guidance online about that question.
Click to expand...

When did that change? I went IFR from here to Philly, and overflew Canada with a domestic flight plan last year.
 
According to the document below, November 15. Also see this link.
 

Attachments

  • AIM Changes for ICAO 2012.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 23
Why does the ICAO always seem to make things 20 times more difficult?
 
EdFred said:
Why does the ICAO always seem to make things 20 times more difficult?
Click to expand...

Anytime you deal with multiple jurisdictions things get orders-of-magnitude more difficult.

Try filing taxes in multiple countries sometime!
 
FWIW... I just emailed Foreflight with a question about this (specifically, which format does FF use when filing) and was told that FF files domestic flight plans only. They also pointed me to this AOPA article that contradicts everything I've found online in stuff from the FAA. The guy they interviewed for the article is with FAA operations support.

Foreflight is really great with questions from customers... their support staff is really prompt and helpful. :thumbsup:

Anyway, I'm TOTALLY confused at this point. :confused:
 
As recently as November I used Foreflight to file a VFR plan originating in the US and terminating in Canada and it worked fine. However I have configured Foreflight to use DUATS for filing. I think.
 
alaskaflyer said:
As recently as November I used Foreflight to file a VFR plan originating in the US and terminating in Canada and it worked fine. However I have configured Foreflight to use DUATS for filing. I think.
Click to expand...
IIRC Foreflight uses DUATS for filing regardless of how you configure it. The option is to configure it to use your DUATS account rather than a Foreflight account.

Regardless, FF does not use the ICAO form when filing, it uses domestic only.

I agree, the system doesn't choke on domestic IFR plans even when the route of flight enters international (at least, Canadian) airspace. I filed Sunday via Foreflight crossing over the Windsor, ON area enroute to and from KPCW. No filing errors, no complaints from ATC. Foreflight support suggested that it might make a difference if the airspace is controlled by Canadian ATC (I talked only to Detroit and Cleveland).

Back to the topic: the OP is asking about VFR flight plans.
 
I have done the same VFR overflight you mentioned a couple times since November without issue, but once again that was taking to Detroit and Cleveland (and Selfridge) only. I filed with Foreflight the first time and on the phone the second time.
 
Of course, I've been unable to re-locate a couple of the online references I found after my flight. :rolleyes:
Still, am curious about what *might* be going on - having had two Flight Service briefers mention ICAO in regards to my VFR flight plans w Canada overflight (NOT through an ADIZ).
 
ICAO appears to be a very complicated form to fill out. Well filling the form is pretty straightforward, but it's all the extra blanks, and what letter or number to put in those blanks. Depending on what kind of equipement you have on board. And the need to itemize the equipment. Then if you think you might change your status from IFR to VFR they want to know in advance just precisely where and when the change will take place. They don't want you to depart VFR, and then if conditions deterriorate, change to IFR. But If they did allow it, they'd wnat to know in advance just exactly where you'll be making that change. Cheeze-O-Pete. I guess I'll not be goin' to th' Bahamas. Too big of a PITA.
 
A couple of months ago when there was news about ICAO plans being required, I looked for any practical info for GA pilots re who must fill out an ICAO flight plan, and how-to-do-it instructions.

I found pretty much nothing on the AOPA website or anywhere else.

The most I learned was from a chat site, that if you are a typical small GA pilot, you can continue to file the old flight plans as usual if your flight is within the US.
 
NoHeat said:
A couple of months ago when there was news about ICAO plans being required, I looked for any practical info for GA pilots re who must fill out an ICAO flight plan, and how-to-do-it instructions.

I found pretty much nothing on the AOPA website or anywhere else.

The most I learned was from a chat site, that if you are a typical small GA pilot, you can continue to file the old flight plans as usual if your flight is within the US.
Click to expand...

I took several hours figuring out what our club planes' info for the ICAO 2012 plans should be. It's pretty ugly - For example, the DA40 has equipment code of GLORV/S and in "Other Information" we add PBN/A1B2C2D2O2S1 NAV/RNVD1E2A1 PER/A. I used some of the following resources:

Look here if you want to determine if you need to file an ICAO plan, or find info on it from the FAA: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ato/service_units/enroute/flight_plan_filing/

The most helpful resource on this is fltplan.com: http://flttrack.fltplan.com/ICAOHelp.htm

For those with Garmin avionics, you can download an Excel file listing what their various boxes should be listed as here: https://static.garmincdn.com/apps/f...lans/Garmin_ICAO_Flight_Plan_Information.xlsx

The guy who's behind that posted the following to the Mooney list:

I just finished upgrading FlightAware's flight planner and flight plan filing to support ICAO 2012, so I have probably more experience with the new format than I'd like.

For ICAO, your aircraft type is M20P/L (the /L is the wake turbulence category) followed by your com/nav capabilities. In the US, for many of you that would be: SBGR (S = Standard - ILS, VOR, VHF Radio, B = LPV, G = GNSS/GPS, R = PBN Approved).

Outside the US, the "standard" equipment differs (in Canada, a working ADF is expected if you file S), so you would file BGLORV (L = ILS, O = VOR, V = VHF Radio).

After your com/nav string, you append your SSR (transponder and ADS-B equipment). So with a standard Mode C transponder, you'd just append /C, if you have Mode S and ADS-B it gets more complicated. Lets say you have a Garmin GTX 330 with ADS-B Out through 1090MHz ES (Extended Squitter), you'd file /EB1 (E = Mode S with a/c id, altitude and ES, B1 = ADS-B 1090MHz Out).

To further complicate things, your specific capabilities need to be defined in the remarks. PBN (Performance Based Navigation) capabilities for a WAAS GPS would be PBN/B2C2D2 (this means you have RNAV 5, RNAV 2 and RNAV 1 capability through GNSS/GPS). Since the FAA isn't fully ICAO-compliant, you also need to use the old format to indicate RNAV 1 capability which is NAV/RNVD1E2A1 for assignment for RNAV SIDs and STARs.

Three other new changes are:
1) Approach Category - you can now specify the approach category of your airplane that'd be PER/A for a Mooney with 1.3Vso under 91 knots IAS.
2) ICAO Hex Code - if you have ADS-B you now need to specify your ICAO code under CODE/A519D9 (where A519D9 is your code).
3) Registration - if you file under a call sign, you need to specify your tail number in REG/N12345.

I know this is complicated so to summarize...
Aircraft Type: M20P/L SBGR/C (for many of you)
Remarks: PBN/B2C2D2 NAV/RNVD1E2A1 RMK/Any other remarks...

The FAA has a pamphlet you can print out with all this info: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../icao_2012/media/FPL Brochure (version 2).pdf

You can also setup a profile for your aircraft once and then plan/file flight plans for free at www.flightaware.com or www.fltplan.com.
Click to expand...

Hope this helps!

Kent
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top