VFR above FL 180 Yes?...No?...Maybe?

PerfectTailwind

Filing Flight Plan
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Sep 8, 2010
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PerfectTailwind
This kind of stuff gives me VERTIGO :eek: !!! Please read and try to connect the dots in the FAA spirit of SCENARIO BASED TRAINING; then I hope you can explain it all to me. My comments and perspective are included ((((( in parenthesis ))))). Thank you.

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FLIGHT LEVEL- A level of constant atmospheric pressure related to a reference datum of 29.92 inches of mercury. Each is stated in three digits that represent hundreds of feet. For example, flight level (FL) 250 represents a barometric altimeter indication of 25,000 feet; FL 255, an indication of 25,500 feet.
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§ 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
(b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
(c) Equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215, and after January 1, 2020, §91.225.
(d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
 
((((( Anybody know of ANY ARTCC that would approve (d) above ? What would be a typical scenario other than an inop xpdr ? It would fly in the face of 7110.65T 7-1-1 below ))))):idea:
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AIM
3-2-2. Class A Airspace
a. Definition. Generally, that airspace from 18,000 feet MSL up to and including FL 600, including the airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States and Alaska; and designated international airspace beyond 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States and Alaska within areas of domestic radio navigational signal or ATC radar coverage, and within which domestic procedures are applied.
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§ 71.33 Class A airspace areas.
(a) That airspace of the United States, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States, from 18,000 feet MSL to and including FL600 excluding the states of Alaska and Hawaii, Santa Barbara Island, Farallon Island, and the airspace south of latitude 25°04'00" North.
(b) That airspace of the State of Alaska, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast, from 18,000 feet MSL to and including FL600 but not including the airspace less than 1,500 feet above the surface of the earth and the Alaska Peninsula west of longitude 160°00'00" West.
 
((((( I find it interesting REGULATION 71.33(b) does NOT make it into (ADVISORY) AIM 3-2-2. The highest spot in Alaska (as well as any other state) is Mt. McKinley at 20,320 MSL. What kind of airspace do we have here ?...Class G surface to 1,500 then immediately Class A ? Anybody care to describe the ceiling and cloud clearance requirements between 1,200 agl and 1,500 agl (ALL OF 300 ft) (see 91.155) when the ceiling is 1,500 agl (estimated of course) ?:hairraise:

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AIM
3-1-5. VFR Cruising Altitudes and Flight Levels
(See TBL 3-1-2.)
TBL 3-1-2
VFR Cruising Altitudes and Flight Levels

If your magnetic course
(ground track) is:
And you are more than 3,000 feet above the surface but below 18,000 feet MSL, fly:
And you are above 18,000 feet MSL to FL 290, fly:
0° to 179°
Odd thousands MSL, plus 500 feet
(3,500; 5,500; 7,500, etc.)
Odd Flight Levels plus 500 feet
(FL 195; FL 215; FL 235, etc.)
180° to 359°
Even thousands MSL, plus 500 feet
(4,500; 6,500; 8,500, etc.)
Even Flight Levels plus 500 feet
(FL 185; FL 205; FL 225, etc.)

 
((((( 3-1-5 "...and Flight Levels" should be removed. ))))) :cryin:
((((( TBL 3-1-2 "...and Flight Levels" should be removed. ))))) :cryin:
((((( 2nd column "...but below 18,000 feet MSL, fly:.." should read 17,500 ))))) :incazzato:
((((( ENTIRE 3rd column makes no sense and should be removed. ))))) :ihih:

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AIM
4-4-8. IFR Clearance VFR-on-top
h. ATC will not authorize VFR or VFR-on-top operations in Class A airspace.

 
((((( AIM 4-4-8 correspondes to 7110.65T 7-7-1 blo and CONFLICTS with AIM 3-1-5. Any comments? ))))) :rolleyes2:
 
7110.65T http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

7-1-1. CLASS A AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS
Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or "VFR-on-top" clearances in Class A airspace.
 
((((( 7-1-1 conflicts with 7-3-2 blo ))))) :rolleyes2:
 
7-3-2. ALTITUDE FOR DIRECTION OF FLIGHT
Inform an aircraft maintaining "VFR-on-top" when a report indicates the pilot is not complying with 14 CFR Section 91.159(a).
NOTE-
As required by 14 CFR Section 91.159(a), the appropriate VFR altitudes for aircraft (not in a holding pattern of 20 minutes or less, or turning) operating more than 3,000 feet above the surface to and including 18,000 feet MSL:

Magnetic courses 0-179- odd cardinal altitudes plus 500 feet; e.g., 3,500, 5,500.

Magnetic courses 180-359- even cardinal altitudes plus 500 feet; e.g., 4,500, 8,500.
PHRASEOLOGY-
VFR-ON-TOP CRUISING LEVELS FOR YOUR DIRECTION OF FLIGHT ARE:

more than 3,000 feet above the surface to FL 180:

ODD/EVEN ALTITUDES/FLIGHT LEVELS PLUS FIVE HUNDRED FEET.
 
((((( By way of the above definitions: "VFR" and "Flight Levels" mix like oil & water [except in the hallowed halls of the FAA...We're here to help...]. Change "...and including 18,000 feet MSL:" to 17,500 Change "...to FL 180:" to 17,500. ))))) :thumbsup:
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AIM
5-5-13. VFR-on-top
a. Pilot.
1. This clearance must be requested by the pilot on an IFR flight plan, and if approved, allows the pilot the choice (subject to any ATC restrictions) to select an altitude or flight level in lieu of an assigned altitude.
NOTE-
VFR-on-top is not permitted in certain airspace areas, such as Class A airspace, certain restricted areas, etc. Consequently, IFR flights operating VFR-on-top will avoid such airspace.
REFERENCE-
AIM, IFR Clearance VFR-on-top, Paragraph 4-4-8.
AIM, IFR Separation Standards, Paragraph 4-4-11.
AIM, Position Reporting, Paragraph 5-3-2.
AIM, Additional Reports, Paragraph 5-3-3.
b. Controller.
3. Before issuing clearance, ascertain that the aircraft is not in or will not enter Class A airspace.

 
((((( 5-5-13 makes me question the FAA's sense of A.D.M. and the example being set when attempting to educate VFR-on-top by mixing in any mention of Flight Levels ))))) :dunno:
 
3-1-4. Basic VFR Weather Minimums
TBL 3-1-1
Basic VFR Weather Minimums
Airspace
Flight Visibility Distance from Clouds
 Class A Not Applicable Not Applicable

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§ 91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:
(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and—
(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or
(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).
(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.
 
((((( Can anybody think of a legitimate scenario where (b) applies given the definition of Class A airspace ? ))))) :idea::hairraise:

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Gliders are allowed to fly in pre-established "wave widows". This allows them to fly VFR above 18,000. Not sure exactly what FAR that is but it is relatively popular in the western US. Otherwise, I am not aware of any situation where VFR is an option above FL180.
 
Gliders are allowed to fly in pre-established "wave widows". This allows them to fly VFR above 18,000. Not sure exactly what FAR that is but it is relatively popular in the western US. Otherwise, I am not aware of any situation where VFR is an option above FL180.

It's an option where there is no Class A airspace, such as Hawaii.
 
Gliders are allowed to fly in pre-established "wave widows". This allows them to fly VFR above 18,000. Not sure exactly what FAR that is but it is relatively popular in the western US. Otherwise, I am not aware of any situation where VFR is an option above FL180.

I'm going from memory here but I think those areas are waivered airspace - in other words the altitude and IFR requirements are waived by prior arrangement for participating aircraft on coordination with the TRACON/Center for that area. At Minden/Tahoe, we would call the FBO who would call the TRACON and open the window for us with Reno and then close it when we were done - it was a use as required thing and not a permanently waived operation.
 
Could you fly VFR on top above FL180? That would put you operating within both IFR and VFR rules at the xx5 altitude.
 
Well above FL600 you are VFR on top again :D
 
Isn't VFR on TOP operating under IFR flight rules?

Then why not in class A?

Other than NO WE DON'T DO THAT!

Because FAA Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control contains the following:


Chapter 7. Visual
Section 1. General
7-1-1. CLASS A AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS

Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or
"VFR-on-top" clearances in Class A airspace.

 
You can be. In my experience the aircraft that can get up there just cancel IFR as they climb above Class A airspace.

And just how much experience do you have with aircraft that climb up above FL600?:cornut::hairraise:
 
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And just how much experience do you have with aircraft that climb up above FL600?:cornut::hairraise:

Damn little, and none since I left ZAU. Twenty some years ago a NASA ER-1 was doing some atmospheric research out of KMSN. The pilot would request an unrestricted climb to FL 610, leaving FL 600 he'd call to say, "cancel my IFR."
 
my brain hurts just reading all that....
 
VFR above FL 180 isn't happening. IFR only about 18000 feet and you have to use the IFR cardinal pressure altitudes. VFR on top would have you picking your altitude with 500 foot offsets, and it just isn't allowed. All traffic is controlled in Class A airspace.

And I know I'll get any questions on that correct on my IR written in the next month.
 
VFR above FL 180 isn't happening. IFR only about 18000 feet and you have to use the IFR cardinal pressure altitudes. VFR on top would have you picking your altitude with 500 foot offsets, and it just isn't allowed. All traffic is controlled in Class A airspace.

And I know I'll get any questions on that correct on my IR written in the next month.

unless you are operating under a waiver from ATC, as noted above.
 
We do indeed fly VFR in class G airspace adjacent to mountains extending up into what normally would be class A airspace, here.

§ 71.33 Class A airspace areas.
(a) That airspace of the United States, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States, from 18,000 feet MSL to and including FL600 excluding the states of Alaska and Hawaii, Santa Barbara Island, Farallon Island, and the airspace south of latitude 25°04'00" North.

(b) That airspace of the State of Alaska, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast, from 18,000 feet MSL to and including FL600 but not including the airspace less than 1,500 feet above the surface of the earth and the Alaska Peninsula west of longitude 160°00'00" West.
 
The highest spot in Alaska (as well as any other state) is Mt. McKinley at 20,320 MSL. What kind of airspace do we have here ?...Class G surface to 1,500 then immediately Class A ?

Yes.

Anybody care to describe the ceiling and cloud clearance requirements between 1,200 agl and 1,500 agl (ALL OF 300 ft) (see 91.155) when the ceiling is 1,500 agl (estimated of course) ?

Same as any other class G airspace :cheerswine:
 
VFR above FL 180 isn't happening. IFR only about 18000 feet and you have to use the IFR cardinal pressure altitudes. VFR on top would have you picking your altitude with 500 foot offsets, and it just isn't allowed. All traffic is controlled in Class A airspace.

And I know I'll get any questions on that correct on my IR written in the next month.

I have a question for you.

Let's say I depart VFR from Hilo International Airport (ITO). I bid the fine folks in Hilo tower bye-bye and climb up to FL 245, where I level off and proceed direct to Lihue Airport (LIH). Approaching Lihue I call the equally fine folks in Lihue tower and I'm cleared to land.

I did not file a flight plan, I did not request an IFR clearance, the only contacts with ATC were the two control towers.

Did I violate any FARs?
 
Weclome to my world Steven. On this and other boards Alaska and Hawaii are not in the United States.

SEE ALSO long, circuitous arguments about legal IFR flight in class G airpace which supposedly no longer exists anywhere except under 700 and 1200 E-space :rolleyes2:
 
Damn little, and none since I left ZAU. Twenty some years ago a NASA ER-1 was doing some atmospheric research out of KMSN. The pilot would request an unrestricted climb to FL 610, leaving FL 600 he'd call to say, "cancel my IFR."

"Chicago Center, NASA1234, we need an IFR clearance to descend into Class A"

"Excuse me, don't you mean climb into Class A NASA1234"

"Negative Chicago Center, that was descend into Class A":cornut:
 
I have a question for you.

Let's say I depart VFR from Hilo International Airport (ITO). I bid the fine folks in Hilo tower bye-bye and climb up to FL 245, where I level off and proceed direct to Lihue Airport (LIH). Approaching Lihue I call the equally fine folks in Lihue tower and I'm cleared to land.

I did not file a flight plan, I did not request an IFR clearance, the only contacts with ATC were the two control towers.

Did I violate any FARs?

Yes, you did. Wave hi to the F-15s.
 
I have a question for you.

Let's say I depart VFR from Hilo International Airport (ITO). I bid the fine folks in Hilo tower bye-bye and climb up to FL 245, where I level off and proceed direct to Lihue Airport (LIH). Approaching Lihue I call the equally fine folks in Lihue tower and I'm cleared to land.

I did not file a flight plan, I did not request an IFR clearance, the only contacts with ATC were the two control towers.

Did I violate any FARs?

I seem to recall seeing a post that indicated that there is no Class A airspace over Hawaii. So, in that case, probably not. But anytime I've flown there it's been in a C-172, and they are not noted for making it into the flight levels, so it's been a moot point for me.
 
14 CFR 99.11, since you crossed an ADIZ without being on an IFR or DVFR. But it turns out you actually didn't give enough information - what's your true airspeed? If it's less than 180kts, then you're fine - although, if you're up in the flight levels, chances are you aren't. It doesn't look to me like you can operate your flight entirely within 12nm of an island coastline.
 
14 CFR 99.11, since you crossed an ADIZ without being on an IFR or DVFR. But it turns out you actually didn't give enough information - what's your true airspeed? If it's less than 180kts, then you're fine - although, if you're up in the flight levels, chances are you aren't. It doesn't look to me like you can operate your flight entirely within 12nm of an island coastline.

Well, you didn't really cross an ADIZ, but your flight did originate with it. I still agree that it appears 99.11 still applies, but what I am trying to figure out is why the island of Hawaii is within the ADIZ, and the inner boundary isn't explanded to include the big island.

ifim05.gif
 
Isn't VFR on TOP operating under IFR flight rules?

Then why not in class A?

Other than NO WE DON'T DO THAT!

VFR on top is not flying IFR. I have had several flights when I have departed VFR, climbed VFR above a layer (either through holes or on one side of the layer), stayed VFR above the layer, and then descended on the other side of the layer.

Now, if you're talking about requesting a VFR-on-top clearance (where you climb IFR through the layer and, once on top of it, proceed VFR), then you are on a composite flight plan, and the VFR-on-top portion is actually VFR.
 
VFR on top is not flying IFR. I have had several flights when I have departed VFR, climbed VFR above a layer (either through holes or on one side of the layer), stayed VFR above the layer, and then descended on the other side of the layer.

Now, if you're talking about requesting a VFR-on-top clearance (where you climb IFR through the layer and, once on top of it, proceed VFR), then you are on a composite flight plan, and the VFR-on-top portion is actually VFR.

I believe that would be VFR over the top you described in the first paragraph. VFR on top is still on an IFR clearance, is not necessarily part of a composite flight plan.
 
VFR on top is not flying IFR. I have had several flights when I have departed VFR, climbed VFR above a layer (either through holes or on one side of the layer), stayed VFR above the layer, and then descended on the other side of the layer.

Now, if you're talking about requesting a VFR-on-top clearance (where you climb IFR through the layer and, once on top of it, proceed VFR), then you are on a composite flight plan, and the VFR-on-top portion is actually VFR.

VFR-on-Top is an IFR operation. You still have to follow your clearance, but your altitude is at the pilot's discretion, and you maintain VFR cruising altitudes.

You are still on an IFR flight plan...I was going to talk about lost comms procedures as still being applicable, but if you lose comms, and encounter VFR, so lost comms procedures are pretty much moot.
 
14 CFR 99.11, since you crossed an ADIZ without being on an IFR or DVFR. But it turns out you actually didn't give enough information - what's your true airspeed? If it's less than 180kts, then you're fine - although, if you're up in the flight levels, chances are you aren't. It doesn't look to me like you can operate your flight entirely within 12nm of an island coastline.

It's a DoD aircraft. :wink2:
 
I believe that would be VFR over the top you described in the first paragraph. VFR on top is still on an IFR clearance, is not necessarily part of a composite flight plan.

Hmm. That differs from what I remember studying when working on my IFR rating. Then again, it's not something I have any use for where I fly, either.
 
Hmm. That differs from what I remember studying when working on my IFR rating. Then again, it's not something I have any use for where I fly, either.

On top = still IFR and you follow both sets of rules (VFR/IFR)

Over the top = strictly VFR.
 
Hmm. That differs from what I remember studying when working on my IFR rating. Then again, it's not something I have any use for where I fly, either.

here ya go
AIM 4-4-8-f said:
f. ATC authorization to "maintain VFR-on-top" is not intended to restrict pilots so that they must operate only above an obscuring meteorological formation (layer). Instead, it permits operation above, below, between layers, or in areas where there is no meteorological obscuration. It is imperative, however, that pilots understand that clearance to operate "VFR-on-top/VFR conditions" does not imply cancellation of the IFR flight plan.
 
semantics Ted, semantics.

Yeah, this is what I get for having flights where it rarely would make sense to do anything other than a strictly IFR or VFR flight.
 
VFR on top is not flying IFR. I have had several flights when I have departed VFR, climbed VFR above a layer (either through holes or on one side of the layer), stayed VFR above the layer, and then descended on the other side of the layer.

You're describing VFR over-the-top. VFR-on-top, aka IFR over-the-top, is an IFR operation.

Now, if you're talking about requesting a VFR-on-top clearance (where you climb IFR through the layer and, once on top of it, proceed VFR), then you are on a composite flight plan, and the VFR-on-top portion is actually VFR.

No, composite flight plans are for flights where one portion of the flight is under VFR and another portion is under IFR. VFR-on-top is an IFR operation all the way, but while assigned VFR-on-top the pilot operates at appropriate VFR altitudes, maintains VFR conditions, and is responsible for all separation from other aircraft.
 
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