Value on a for sale Rans-S6ES project

[darlingm]

What would a realistic range of sale prices of this project plane be within a month or so?

A new Rans S-6ES airframe kit alone is $25,500. Just wondering about orders of magnitude for this one. Near scrap, a few thousand, $20,000, etc.

Rans S-6ES. Original builder made a mistake with the fuel tanks, had the engine shut off on its initial flight. Leading edge of a wing clipped a tree, managed to land a bit hard back on the runway, but was otherwise OK. Airworthiness certificate and N number registration documentation available. (Obviously not airworthy at the moment.)

Skin stripped off. Airplane mechanic hired to cut out, replace, and weld in about 3 bent metal tube sections, on the leading edge of a wing and in the landing gear.

Comes with a Rotax 582 64hp engine, mentioned as Rans as being one of the 3 engines recommended for the S-6ES (this is the lowest recommended hp.) Supposedly less than 200 hours on it, but no docs on the engine. (The original engine in the plane wasn't Rans-approved, so this was purchased to replace the original engine.) Supposedly runs well.

Comes with propellor, engine mount, radiator, instrument panel, plans.

Unknown if comes with seats, hardware, or avionics.

For value estimation, let's assume everything not said to be there isn't.

Click on a picture to enlarge it

 

[German guy]

Be careful with the used 582 and assume that it needs to be overhauled - great, reliable engine, but also an engine which want's to be run regularly. The crankshaft is supported by needle bearings, which quickly start to corrode if it sits for a while, as the oil film on the bearings of 2-strokes engines is very thin. The tricky thing is, that the engine might run great at first but that the corroded bearings will wear out after a few hours.

Since you don't have a PPL yet, you might however first want to make sure that it meets the requirements for your training and that you have a CFI who is willing to train you in it.

Frankly, though, looking at all you other posts, which seem to entirely circle around the costs of flying, it might be advisable to listen to those who argue that owning a plane will most likely not be cheaper than renting, unless you fly a lot each year. Also keep in mind, that if you own the plane, you also accept all the risks. Unless you are not willing / able to deal with an unexpectedly failing radio / engine / transponder / whatever and to write a check to fix the problem, ownership is probably not for you.

The Mettetal airport offers by far the cheapest hangars in the area, which still cost $160 / month. Even at 100 hrs / year, the hangar alone translates to $19.20 / hr. Search the forum for the costs for of ownership, add them up and you will probably come to the conclusion that the potential to save costs is close to $0, while you still carry all the risks.

If you really want a plane and have the required funds, go for it. If you are looking for a plane to save costs or even because your can't afford the $89 / hr for a 152, you might want to reconsider your plans.

 

[docmirror]

If it's true that the needle bearings in the crankshaft are corroding with non-use(I have no reference either way), then the bearing materials are sub-standard. I have owned a lot of jet skis with 2 stroke engines that sit for months in a humid environment and the needle bearings, and in some cases the ball bearings in them last forever. The main failure mode for jet ski engines is tossing a rod when the jet draws air on a jump and over-revs.

Again, I know nothing about the specifics of the Rotax 582, but if the bearings are going bad, that's a sign of inferior materials used in the rollers or the shells. Good qual steel should last for many hours even after non-movement for long periods.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

Whatever you'd spend on this, should be disposable income and you'll want to have an equal amount to throw at the project if needed. It's an interesting project but don't consider it a cheap way to get into flying. This would be a good project for a retired, experienced owner, with an airplane already flying, who wants something to tinker on.

 

[German guy]

If it's true that the needle bearings in the crankshaft are corroding with non-use(I have no reference either way), then the bearing materials are sub-standard. [...]

I know of several cases in which a 582 failed within a few hours after they sat for longer periods of time, without being pickled. In Germany, where I am from, they used to be very popular engines for weightshift trikes and other LSA (the German variant). Owners often left their plane sitting for months, if not years, before they finally decided to sell it. It was not uncommon that the engine failed shortly after it was sold.

I searched google for support of my argument and found a 'Rotax Tech Article' in which the author argues that 'Engines that run infrequently or are stored for long periods are most likely to show signs of corrosion and pitting of the roller bearings and rod end needles. Here is where you will find a huge difference in the expected run life versus an engine that is run daily. If improperly stored bearings can become pitted with rust that will greatly reduce the service life.'
https://www.cps-parts.com/cps/pdf/Part62.pdf

Transport Canada also has an article on their website in which they recommend to test the bearings of such engines:
'Long periods of inactivity can also be detrimental because the grease sealant and oil necessary for the smooth operation of the roller-type bearings may dry out.
Residual products of combustion can be significantly acidic, and thus accelerate corrosion of the bearing materials. If corrosion occurs, this preconditions the bearings to wear rapidly, possibly even to the point of failure over the next several flights.'
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp7317-2-99-255-4989.htm


Back in Germany my wife and I owned a trike with a 582. We absolutely loved it. There is absolutely nothing wrong it - just be extra careful when it sat.
This was us in our trike: https://youtu.be/SiDbuJGXNuk

 

[docmirror]

I know of several cases in which a 582 failed within a few hours after they sat for longer periods of time, without being pickled.

I searched google for support of my argument and found a 'Rotax Tech Article' in which the author argues that 'Engines that run infrequently or are stored for long periods are most likely to show signs of corrosion and pitting of the roller bearings and rod end needles.

This was us in our trike: https://youtu.be/SiDbuJGXNuk

No need to support the argument, it sounds likely and I think the evidence is there. I'm just disappointed to see that an engine in use for aviation would use such poor materials for a critical engine part.

Yamaha has both ball, and some roller bearing cranks depending on model and year. I've been involved in jet skis for many years, and I can't think of the last time I heard of an engine eating a crank bearing. One more reason I don't trust 2 strokes.

Looks like a fun little ride!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I bought a "fly it home ready" 2 seat LSA rag and tube homebuilt for 20K with a Rotax 912. I would expect to pay significantly less if it had a two stroke but was still in flying condition. An incomplete basket case? Not much.

 

[German guy]

Looking at how flying Kitfoxes (direct competitor of the Rans S6, more planes available) are listed on Barnstormers, selling the metal of the above plane for scrap and the engine and prop for a few hundred bucks on eBay, might make the most sense.

2012, Rotax 582, looks really nice, $19,000:
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1059143_2012+Kitfox+II.html

Kitfox IV, Rotax 912, 105 h TT, $25,500:
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_905368_KITFOX+IV+-+1200+TRI-GEAR+++++.html

You however wrote in another threat that you want to fly a lot. What does this mean? Going place? In a Kitfox? Hmmm...
Accumulating hours to become a commercial pilot? In this case, something like a IFR capable 150 / 152 / Tri-Pacer / Colt / Tomahawk are the cheapest options which make any sense, so that you can also get your IR in it.

Please don't get me wrong, and I really hate to sound like a smartass, but I want to keep you from doing something stupid. To see you going from a partnership to a 152 to a pile of Rans S-6 parts however indicates that you might be just about to do exactly this: Unless you can easily afford the plane + Michigan sales tax + a few thousand Dollars for pre-buy inspections, looking at planes, ferrying it home + at least $10,000 for initial / unexpected repairs, my advice would be to not go down this route.