Upset Training

[dillardrg]

The current FAASafetyBriefing News Letter has 2 articles about Loss of Control problems. You can see the News Letter here;


http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2012/media/MarApr2012.pdf


It seems the FAA recognizes that not all pilots have been taught how to forsee situations where loss of control may occur and may not be trained to control their aircraft through out its regime.

They seem to be encouraging additional training such as Upset Training to eliminate some of the LOC-I accidents.

 

[denverpilot]

They keep this up, they'll bring spin training back.

 

[gprellwitz]

That's one of the focuses of the Safety Standdown this year. They had Rich Stowell as one of the commentators in the videos.

 

[mbundy]

They keep this up, they'll bring spin training back.

Really? How does entering and spin and recovering on a predefined heading make one a better pilot? Well, at least you pancaked into the ground on runway heading...The overwhelming majority of stall/spin accidents happen on "base to final."

We should all learn more about stall/spin awareness, unusual attitudes, and emergencies. How many people have done stalls in a slip vs a skid? Barrel rolls (wake turbulence)? Simulated control failure (stuck flap, rudder spring snap, etc)?

 

[denverpilot]

I was half-joking because the safety theme changes every year to match the accident records and often within about five years or so, the thing that was emphasized in precious years subtly changes the accident types to set the stage for later years. I'm guessing that around a 15 year circle... and the emphasis will come right back around to the original one you first saw.

The focus this year is on Loss of Control in flight. Why are people losing control of otherwise fine aircraft in cruise?

I say... Because they don't really know how to fly them. If you can't spin and recover a Skyhawk, you really don't know how to fully fly it. IMHO. How long ago did spin training get dropped?

It's just coming around the bend again as a supposedly "new" problem that people aren't spending time on stick and rudder skills. The autopilots are nice these days.

The multi-year "Stabilized Approach" emphasis hasn't lowered the number of stall/spin accidents per flight hour. And has cost us the ability to recognize a slip from a skid and made 152 pilots drag the final approach out at least a mile or more at some airports. They never need a good slip anymore, they're dragging the airplane back to the airport in full power cruise until the VASI switches from all red to having a white light.

Prior to that "Tune and Identify" was a common theme. Too many mis-tuned navaids. That one probably won't boomerang back around with the exact same wording in 15 years from its run in the safety emphasis darling message timeframe, since VORs and NDBs will almost be gone, but it'll be similar... "Over-reliance on GPS nav database data and/or GPS automation". Or similar.

The song keeps playing, the lyrics change. About 15 years ago weren't Bonanzas falling from the sky and everyone wondering how all these pilots were losing control of them in flight? (And the community learned that it wasn't the designs, it was mostly the pilots then, too?)

Right now we're buried in books and tools to teach "knobology". And just starting back into a "fly the darn plane" phase of these ebbs and flows in the safety reminders. Folks spent too much time flying the gadgets.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Really? How does entering and spin and recovering on a predefined heading make one a better pilot? Well, at least you pancaked into the ground on runway heading...The overwhelming majority of stall/spin accidents happen on "base to final."

We should all learn more about stall/spin awareness, unusual attitudes, and emergencies. How many people have done stalls in a slip vs a skid? Barrel rolls (wake turbulence)? Simulated control failure (stuck flap, rudder spring snap, etc)?

Upset training is more than just spin training. It includes accelerated stall training, cross-control stall training, and more. Mostly, it is about being confident in your ability to not "lose it" because you ended up in an attitude you've never seen before, not that you've necessarily become proficient in every possible scenario.

Being able to recover from a spin on a predetermined heading indicates that you were able to maintain situational awareness and control of the situation and "remain the pilot" - not just be a passenger who mechanically managed to recover the plane in an imprecise manner. It is about flying the plane instead of letting the plane fly you.

Jeff

 

[denverpilot]

Someone added "to a heading" to this. I just said spins. The ultimate "upset".

 

[nosehair]

Upset training is more than just spin training. It includes accelerated stall training, cross-control stall training, and more. Mostly, it is about being confident in your ability to not "lose it" because you ended up in an attitude you've never seen before,

Actually, all those things are (should be) included in "spin training".
It seems now that the term "spin training" has become a few demos for the CFI sign-off rather than the complete training to be able to AVOID, not just recover from, unusual attitudes. Avoidance ability comes by being in control at all times,...no matter what.

Your quote:

Being able to recover from a spin on a predetermined heading indicates that you were able to maintain situational awareness and control of the situation and "remain the pilot" - not just be a passenger who mechanically managed to recover the plane in an imprecise manner. It is about flying the plane instead of letting the plane fly you.

is what all "spin training", "upset training", ...or any other training that we do that doesn't seem to fit into a "normal operation" mode, is exactly for that quoted purpose, to be able to fly the airplane 100% of the time, no matter what.

You, Sir, have hit the nail on the head. :wink2:

 

[Captain]

They can't bring back spin training. Right now there's an entire generation of pilots who were never taught it. The CFIs were forced to demo it but that's only one flight so how proficient do you think they are?

If they made spin training a requirement tomorrow for all Private Pilots I'd guess the GA fleet would lose about 3,000 planes and twice as many lives. At the very least there would be a massive spike in crashes and the public would have even more fear of 'those small planes'.

 

[Dr. O]

Coming back to the airport a week ago I let an acquaintance who is not a rated pilot (has about 10 hours as a student sprinkled over the past 3 years - typical money issues) fly the plane into the pattern... When he turned final it was clear we were too high and even he could see it...
"Gotta go around." he said
"Let me show you something." I said "My airplane", I jiggled the rudder pedals...
"Your airplane." he replied...
I chopped the throttles, stood on the right rudder, rolled in a gob of left aileron, and down we went, slid over the fence, straightened it out, and rolled the mains on pretty as you please... (hey, once in a while I nail one by accident)
On the ground he asks what that maneuver to lose altitude was called.. I said it was a slip... He says that's what he thought it was and that his instructor told him never to 'slip' a plane (whatever that meant) because you will spin and crash - then he says he read an article where they said you cannot slip a twin because it will spin and cannot be controlled...
I looked at him over the wing for a minute, decided he wasn't pulling my leg and said, "Well now, that is two so called 'experts' where you now know more than they do about slips."
"Yeah" he said and he smiled a lot for the rest of the time we were at the pilots lounge...

Now, obviously were I given the power to regulate GA I would strip about half the regs right out of the book and just toss them away... But I would put back in one new/old rule - requiring spin training...

denny-o

 

[RoscoeT]

Really? How does entering and spin and recovering on a predefined heading make one a better pilot?

Are you saying spin training won't make you a better pilot? With that comment, I can't imagine you are comfortable and competent with spins yourself. Folks who are current, competent, and comfortable with spins are less likely to get into accidental stall/spin accidents. I think fear of spins actually causes a disproportionate number of pilots to stall/spin on base to final. You will not be afraid of spins after good spin training. I find it funny that folks who are afraid of spins and have no experience with them tend to dismiss the value of spin training. And the folks who have received good spin training come away with a totally new perspective and find it a highly valuable experience.

 

[dell30rb]

Really? How does entering and spin and recovering on a predefined heading make one a better pilot? Well, at least you pancaked into the ground on runway heading...The overwhelming majority of stall/spin accidents happen on "base to final."

I had somewhere between 5-10 hours at the time I did my first power-on stall. The airplane broke sharply to the left, and instead of stomping right rudder to correct I spazzed and gave it a bunch of left rudder. Now you can imagine what happened, the wing tucked under and the windscreen filled with sky. I pretty much froze. My instructor stepped in and stopped the spin before it fully developed. It was one of those "woah, please explain to me what just happened" moments

Now 200 hours down the road and lots of play time with spins and accelerated stalls later, I know that I can recognize one when it occurs and immediately initiate proper recovery. I know I am not going to freeze up if the wing drops or any crap like that. And further, because I have stalled the airplane and spun out of turns, I know very well what it feels like before the plane is going to stall. There are plenty of warning signs, they can't be explained in a book.

People freeze when they encounter something that is unknown to them and frightening. If you've never spun an airplane and all of a sudden you find the wing tucking under, you're not going to be able to smoothly and precisely recover from the incipient spin. I'm sure all of you who have spun airplanes, remember the first time as a real "holy ****" moment. But after a few tries it becomes familiar and fun. 500agl is not the time to have a holy **** moment.

 

[alfadog]

How does entering and spin and recovering on a predefined heading make one a better pilot?

Is this a serious question?

 

[Everskyward]

Here's another loss of control accident in a large airplane. I read a good article about it in B&CA this morning but I couldn't find it on the internet. I was able to find a similar article on the same accident in another magazine, however.

The captain, who was the flying pilot, ended up getting the bank angle warning a few times and getting the shaker a few times, eventually spiraling into the Mediterranean Sea. Before someone says that he was the product of a pilot mill with no experience hand-flying here is his background.

The captain, 45, held type ratings for the 737-700/800 and the Fokker 50. His 10,233 flight hours included 188 hours as pilot-in- command (PIC) of 737s and 1,042 hours as a Fokker PIC. He was hired by Ethiopian Airlines in 1989 and flew agricultural aircraft for nine years before being assigned as a first officer in de Havilland Twin Otters, 737s and 757s. He was promoted to a Fokker captain in 2008 and completed training as a 737 captain less than two months before the accident.

If he flew agricultural aircraft for nine years you would think he could hand-fly and know how to recover from a stall.

Everyone has heard about Air France, but this accident is even more puzzling because there was no malfunction to trigger the chain of events. The article in B&CA (the one I can't link to) made more of the fact that the Captain set the trim and didn't touch it afterwards so he was fighting the controls for much of the time. It also mentioned that the outcome probably would have been better if he had just engaged the autopilot from the beginning and had not tried to hand-fly.