Upgrading to Private from Sport

jpower

jpower

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James
Hi all,
This summer, I plan to have a job and to be able to upgrade from my SPL to private. I figured a while back that there actually isn't too much to do. The stick and rudder flying is the same, and all I'd have to do are a couple of longer cross countries, night flying, more practice under the hood and more unusual attitude practice, and I'm golden. Is there anything else I've forgotten?

Also, how would I work the student pilot certificate? Will I need one, considering I'll most likely be training in LSAs to get my private? If so, how does that work? I know the FAA doesn't like to pilots to hold two certificates at once, and the most recently issued certificate voids any previously held certificates. Would I then not be able to exercise SP privileges? That doesn't make any sense.

I'll obviously need a medical, but I'm 18 with no health issues, so I'm sure I will be fine. Of course I'll check to be certain...but I don't foresee any problems.

Is there anything else I should know about the process?

Thanks!
 
There's a much greater emphasis on weather and airspace, both on the knowledge test and the oral. In general, the oral will be much more rigorous, at least it was in my case. Don't make the mistake of thinking the oral will be a piece of cake since your light sport oral was. You'll be dealing with a different class of examiners and they look at you as a perspective instrument/commercial pilot and expect way more from you.

As to the checkride, expect a diversion and be able to demonstrate that you can find a new heading to it along with ETA and fuel remaining. You'll also have to show that you can navigate with radio aids. In my case, it was the GPS. In addition to just punching in a destination and following the bug, you'll have to show that you can intercept a VOR radial and track it in or outbound. Again, even though much of the PTS is the same for light sport and pp, expect to be held to a higher standard.
 
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Was all your work for the sport pilot certificate done with a "regular" CFI with privileges in single engine airplanes?

I ask because if it was done with a CFI only rated for light sport aircraft, it doesn't currently count towards the private certificate.
 
TMetzinger said:
Was all your work for the sport pilot certificate done with a "regular" CFI with privileges in single engine airplanes?

I ask because if it was done with a CFI only rated for light sport aircraft, it doesn't currently count towards the private certificate.
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Yup, should have mentioned that. A CFI and a CFII, so I'm fine on that front.
 
In that case, it's going to be a simple matter of matching up the PPL instruction requirements (night and hood and some other stuff) against your logged time and getting it done. If you've flown the solo cross-countries already on your own (they had to be SOLO, no pax) you'll only have to do the dual X/C stuff not already accomplished.
 
TMetzinger said:
In that case, it's going to be a simple matter of matching up the PPL instruction requirements (night and hood and some other stuff) against your logged time and getting it done. If you've flown the solo cross-countries already on your own (they had to be SOLO, no pax) you'll only have to do the dual X/C stuff not already accomplished.
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I still have to do the long cross country (the Sport cross country is 75 nm, if i remember correctly) and the night cross country. I guess then that the long XC would have to be without a passenger? They care about me being solo, not about me being PIC, then?

How about getting a student pilot certificate? Would I need one?
 
To be honest, I don't know if you need a student pilot certificate. My guess is you probably do need the medical/student certificate. I'll ask a local expert who's probably gone through this already.

And my point about the X/C was that if you'd made a qualifying solo X/C after getting your SP certificate, it would count.
 
My guess is that if you can meet the PP training requirements, including the solo flights, without exceeding your sport pilot privileges, then you won't need a student certificate. A student pilot certificate is not a prerequisite for applying for a PP cert (e.g. foreign pilots who have plenty of hours may just take the written test and checkride with endorsement from a CFI and the 3 hrs)

You will need to take the written test.

BTW if you do need a student certificate, for whatever reason, you can get a free one literally on the back of your first medical.
 
jpower said:
I still have to do the long cross country (the Sport cross country is 75 nm, if i remember correctly) and the night cross country. I guess then that the long XC would have to be without a passenger? They care about me being solo, not about me being PIC, then?

How about getting a student pilot certificate? Would I need one?
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The rules say solo training.

I'm pretty sure you don't need a student pilot certificate. You can dig through part 61...
 
pericynthion said:
My guess is that if you can meet the PP training requirements, including the solo flights, without exceeding your sport pilot privileges, then you won't need a student certificate. A student pilot certificate is not a prerequisite for applying for a PP cert (e.g. foreign pilots who have plenty of hours may just take the written test and checkride with endorsement from a CFI and the 3 hrs)

You will need to take the written test.

BTW if you do need a student certificate, for whatever reason, you can get a free one literally on the back of your first medical.
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If you train for the private in an LSA, no student pilot cert would be needed - of that I'm certain.

But to fly a 172 solo, I don't think the SP certificate, even with a logbook endorsement, is sufficient. I'm waiting to hear back from a friend who runs a large flight school with LSA and larger airplanes.
 
If you have a medical and a Sport pilot certificate, you are good to go in the 172. You won't need a Student pilot certificate.

What I am unsure of is what limitations you would have flying the 172. If you were my student though I would just keep it simple and apply the same limitations a student pilot would have. That may be the correct answer and certainly the safe one.
But I could see that all the same limitations might not apply.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
jpower said:
Hi all,
This summer, I plan to have a job and to be able to upgrade from my SPL to private. I figured a while back that there actually isn't too much to do. The stick and rudder flying is the same, and all I'd have to do are a couple of longer cross countries, night flying, more practice under the hood and more unusual attitude practice, and I'm golden. Is there anything else I've forgotten?

Also, how would I work the student pilot certificate? Will I need one, considering I'll most likely be training in LSAs to get my private? If so, how does that work? I know the FAA doesn't like to pilots to hold two certificates at once, and the most recently issued certificate voids any previously held certificates. Would I then not be able to exercise SP privileges? That doesn't make any sense.

I'll obviously need a medical, but I'm 18 with no health issues, so I'm sure I will be fine. Of course I'll check to be certain...but I don't foresee any problems.

Is there anything else I should know about the process?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Get the medical and the Student Pilot certificate comes with it, all you need to do. Do the requirements that aren't in your log and go for it. What you'll find is that the inverse of what you may believe is true. The larger the aircraft, the easier the actual stick and rudder stuff is. You just need to learn finer judgement because the error expense goes way up in heavy jets.
 
brcase said:
If you have a medical and a Sport pilot certificate, you are good to go in the 172. You won't need a Student pilot certificate.
Click to expand...

Not so sure about that. Without that Student Pilot cert, you couldn't solo the 172.
 
brcase said:
If you have a medical and a Sport pilot certificate, you are good to go in the 172. You won't need a Student pilot certificate.

What I am unsure of is what limitations you would have flying the 172. If you were my student though I would just keep it simple and apply the same limitations a student pilot would have. That may be the correct answer and certainly the safe one.
But I could see that all the same limitations might not apply.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

Brian, I'm not saying you're incorrect. Can you walk me through your thought process?

I'm in full agreement that the limitations you put in the student logbook for the 172 will be whatever you think is appropriate and there's no issue there.

My thought process revolves around what "privileges" a student pilot certificate confers and that a sport pilot certificate confers. As I understand it, a sport pilot certificate only confers pilot privileges in a light sport aircraft. A student pilot certificate (when properly endorsed), confers solo privileges in the category and class endorsed on the student pilot certificate, subject to the limitations put on it or in the logbook. That's why I don't think the SP certificate is good enough to solo a 172.
 
brcase said:
If you have a medical and a Sport pilot certificate, you are good to go in the 172. You won't need a Student pilot certificate.

What I am unsure of is what limitations you would have flying the 172. If you were my student though I would just keep it simple and apply the same limitations a student pilot would have. That may be the correct answer and certainly the safe one.
But I could see that all the same limitations might not apply.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

How does that work? Did they put some verbiage on the Sport Pilot certificate that makes it a Student Pilot Cert with a medical?
 
I heard back, and the answer is that all that's needed is the medical, as the SP is already a rated pilot and thus doesn't need to have a CFI "issue" the student pilot certificate.

I'm told that the endorsement given for the solo privileges in the log book is quite different.

Always nice to be wrong when it makes it easier for a pilot to move on.

My error was in thinking that the stuff put on a student pilot certificate is strictly related to soloing the airplane. It's done at the time of the first solo flight, but it's more for the purposes of "issuing" an initial pilot certificate. Since an SP certificate is a higher grade, there's no need for a student certificate. I'll try and see if I can find a sample endorsement(s) for this situation.
 
TMetzinger said:
I heard back, and the answer is that all that's needed is the medical, as the SP is already a rated pilot and thus doesn't need to have a CFI "issue" the student pilot certificate.

I'm told that the endorsement given for the solo privileges in the log book is quite different.

Always nice to be wrong when it makes it easier for a pilot to move on.

My error was in thinking that the stuff put on a student pilot certificate is strictly related to soloing the airplane. It's done at the time of the first solo flight, but it's more for the purposes of "issuing" an initial pilot certificate. Since an SP certificate is a higher grade, there's no need for a student certificate. I'll try and see if I can find a sample endorsement(s) for this situation.
Click to expand...


Ah, got it, cool. Although it is kind of a moot point because the Student Pilot Certificate is free for the asking with the medical you have to get anyway.;)
 
jpower said:
I figured a while back that there actually isn't too much to do. The stick and rudder flying is the same, and all I'd have to do are a couple of longer cross countries, night flying, more practice under the hood and more unusual attitude practice, and I'm golden. Is there anything else I've forgotten?
Click to expand...
Basically, that is it, with the three hours of test prep. There's also the PP-A written.

Also, how would I work the student pilot certificate?
Click to expand...
Nothing to work.
Will I need one,
Click to expand...
No.
considering I'll most likely be training in LSAs to get my private?
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Wouldn't matter what you're training in.
If so, how does that work?
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Your instructor gives you training in the non-LSA as needed to sign a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement for solo in this aircraft for which you are not rated, then you do your solo work. You still have your Sport Pilot certificate valid for all Sport Pilot privileges, and the Student Pilot endorsements and limitations do not apply. Of course...
I'll obviously need a medical,
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...so you'll go than AME and obtain a regular medical (3rd class or better), not the combined medical/Student Pilot certificate.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Your instructor gives you training in the non-LSA as needed to sign a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement for solo in this aircraft for which you are not rated, then you do your solo work. You still have your Sport Pilot certificate valid for all Sport Pilot privileges, and the Student Pilot endorsements and limitations do not apply. Of course...
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Is a non LSA specifically required? Most all the newer LSAs I've seen have all the required equipment for a PP....:dunno:
 
Henning said:
Is a non LSA specifically required? Most all the newer LSAs I've seen have all the required equipment for a PP....:dunno:
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If the instructor is going to give you that endorsement, I believe it will have to be a non-LSA. In any event, if you're doing it in an LSA, you don't need that endorsement. Remember, the question there was what paperwork was needed to do the additional PP solo requirements in a non-LSA such as a 172 and the answer is a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement, not a Student Pilot certificate and 61.87/93 endorsements.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If the instructor is going to give you that endorsement, I believe it will have to be a non-LSA. In any event, if you're doing it in an LSA, you don't need that endorsement. Remember, the question there was what paperwork was needed to do the additional PP solo requirements in a non-LSA such as a 172 and the answer is a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement, not a Student Pilot certificate and 61.87/93 endorsements.
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Yeah, I know, I was just tossing in the extra question to get clear.
 
Thanks for your replies! Just to summarize to keep things straight in my own head and help anyone else who happens on this thread:

Case 1: Upgrading from sport to private in an LSA
I don't need a student pilot certificate, nor do I need an additional endorsement. All I need to do is fulfill the additional training and time requirements, pass the private written, and and get a medical. Then I take my checkride and PRESTO I have my private!

Case 2: Upgrading from sport to private in a non-LSA
I don't need a student pilot certificate, but instead need training in a non-LSA and a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement to solo. Before soloing, I need a medical. Then I have to fulfill the additional training and time requirements, pass the written, and take my ride, and then I get my private.

Also, I assume the additional cross country I'll be doing has to be solo--I can't take anyone out to lunch the perfect distance away, even if it's in an LSA and I'm a sport pilot? :)
 
jpower said:
Thanks for your replies! Just to summarize to keep things straight in my own head and help anyone else who happens on this thread:

Case 1: Upgrading from sport to private in an LSA
I don't need a student pilot certificate, nor do I need an additional endorsement. All I need to do is fulfill the additional training and time requirements, pass the private written, and and get a medical. Then I take my checkride and PRESTO I have my private!

Case 2: Upgrading from sport to private in a non-LSA
I don't need a student pilot certificate, but instead need training in a non-LSA and a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement to solo. Before soloing, I need a medical. Then I have to fulfill the additional training and time requirements, pass the written, and take my ride, and then I get my private.

Also, I assume the additional cross country I'll be doing has to be solo--I can't take anyone out to lunch the perfect distance away, even if it's in an LSA and I'm a sport pilot? :)
Click to expand...

If the requirement is for solo X/C, then that means SOLO, regardless of the airplane you're flying.
 
jpower said:
Thanks for your replies! Just to summarize to keep things straight in my own head and help anyone else who happens on this thread:

Case 1: Upgrading from sport to private in an LSA
I don't need a student pilot certificate, nor do I need an additional endorsement. All I need to do is fulfill the additional training and time requirements, pass the private written, and and get a medical. Then I take my checkride and PRESTO I have my private!

Case 2: Upgrading from sport to private in a non-LSA
I don't need a student pilot certificate, but instead need training in a non-LSA and a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement to solo. Before soloing, I need a medical. Then I have to fulfill the additional training and time requirements, pass the written, and take my ride, and then I get my private.

Also, I assume the additional cross country I'll be doing has to be solo--I can't take anyone out to lunch the perfect distance away, even if it's in an LSA and I'm a sport pilot? :)
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1&2 sounds straight from what I gathered. As far as the cross country, that's a good question, but I'll assume solo.
 
I am working on my Sport Pilot, with the intention of upgrading to a Private Pilot. I will complete the Private in the LSA Aircraft because it is cheaper. Then I do plan on getting the rating for the 172.

What is involved in the training to be rated for the 172? I do have 4 hours logged in a 172, but most of my training is logged in the Piper Sport.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
I am working on my Sport Pilot, with the intention of upgrading to a Private Pilot. I will complete the Private in the LSA Aircraft because it is cheaper. Then I do plan on getting the rating for the 172.

What is involved in the training to be rated for the 172? I do have 4 hours logged in a 172, but most of my training is logged in the Piper Sport.
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If you do your PP training and practical test in the Piper Sport, you will be "rated" for the 172 as soon as you pass that test, since they both fall in the Airplane Single Engine Land category/class. However, you will want to get trained in the differences in systems, performance, and flight characteristics between the two. Typically, this would be about 3 hours of flight training plus an hour or two of ground training for a brand new PP trained solely in an LSA like a Piper Sport. Since you have 4 hours of training in the 172 already, it might take a good bit less, depending on what you remember.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
What is involved in the training to be rated for the 172? I do have 4 hours logged in a 172, but most of my training is logged in the Piper Sport.
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That is up to either your insurance company or the FBO's insurance company (and whatever training you WANT).
 
Thank you for the info. I do plan on obtaining the renters insurance through AOPA. Does that help? I heard for low hour pilots a lot of the rentals would require a check ride with one of their instructors to verify capability. Is this true, and does this end up being an hour or two venture?
 
MDeitch1976 said:
Thank you for the info. I do plan on obtaining the renters insurance through AOPA. Does that help?
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It sure helps your financial security, and with some FBO's, they won't rent if you don't have it (helps assure them they won't be out the deductible if you prang their airplane).

I heard for low hour pilots a lot of the rentals would require a check ride with one of their instructors to verify capability. Is this true,
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It's true, and not just for low-hour pilots. Even if the FBO wasn't that smart, their insurers are. Too much risk to let you just take it and drive it like a rental car. So, for any pilot, first time with a new-to-you FBO, expect a checkout with one of their instructors.

and does this end up being an hour or two venture?
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That's typical. Could be longer for a low-time/newly-rated pilot with no experience in type. Lack of local area familiarity also tends to extend the process.
 
Can someone say, Mom and Dad, I am moving back home so I can afford to feed my new aviation addiction.
 
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